Fed up with Manual J!

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Originally Posted by enb54

I agree with Mr. Bill that this (load calculation) should be a separate service (licensed and insured) and if you install (licensed and insured) to the stated specs, and everyone did their job properly, there likely would be fewer difficulties and far less "finger pointing"...

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What I see here is, most that want to set and promote the LC or finger point, don't seem to want to take the risk involved, maybe this is why. They seem to want to do everything that don't involve any liability or risks. Yea, lets do out Energy Audit and get paid and get the heck out of Dodge, and leave the risk and liability of the LC to the a/c company, that way there is no way we can be blamed. Most folks in this world in the past, that have a product or service they really believed in, or promoted, took the risks to move forward with it, they did not set and argue and wait until the Government got involved, or set forth who is responsible. Bill Gates bought the DOS program, he did not set and wait to find someone working on a operating system he could incorporate his program into, no, he moved forward with what he believed in.

enb54: It is in the economic interest of media to get actively involved concerning the forth coming energy cost crisis, if they don't heed the warnings now, it will be too late & all economies will sink in the fossil fuel quick sand.

If public & coml media doesn't get actively involved the reality is that all fossil fuel dependent economies, which is nearly all of them, will likely crash sometime in the not too distant future.

A war against Iran could trigger +150 $ a BBL Oil prices, as crazy speculation kicks in, which would only take a matter of time for economies to crash & burn...

Real estate agents need to be educated on how to effectively use the big present & future advantages of owning an energy efficient home.

Yes, I watch HGTV channel where the HVAC system or high Home Energy Efficiency is never even mentioned by the agents & buyers never bring it up; the agent may only rarely even mention that the HVAC system is brand new.

It is all what the house appears to be on the surface, then "Holmes' On Homes" on HGTV comes in with his inspections & they realize they bought a worthless, costly total lemon... This needs to change...

I advise buyer's to ask for at least a year of the home's utility bills; & some get them. If they won't provide them, give that reason for not considering buying the house...

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Originally Posted by udarrell

Yes, I watch HGTV channel where the HVAC system or high Home Energy Efficiency is never even mentioned by the agents & buyers never bring it up; the agent may only rarely even mention that the HVAC system is brand new.

It is all what the house appears to be on the surface, then "Holmes' On Homes" on HGTV comes in with his inspections & they realize they bought a worthless, costly total lemon... This needs to change...

I advise buyer's to ask for at least a year of the home's utility bills; & some get them. If they won't provide them, give that reason for not considering buying the house...

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Of course we all know that we should be worried about energy efficiency, even the media and politicians. Unfortunately I'll bet the granite, undermount huge granite sink, and fancy German fixtures will do a better job of selling next time we move, UNLESS we get lucky and some European immigrant happens by...

Mr. Bill you are right about pursuing dreams and putting your money on the line... Perhaps I'll ask my insurance people what it would take for liability insurance for the energy audit business, the body is getting a bit tired of bush roads and 4 wheel drive suspensions... Of course, then I'll have to perhaps move my wardrobe up a notch or two or three...

we are all in deep s**t anyway. Udarrell, you have to remember that people are not planners, they are crisis managers. It always was and always will be. we simply don't have the collective wisdom to do what is right for the world when we are hard wired to do what we, at the time, think is best for "me" or my family. We will find any excuse to not do something when the problem is placed in front of us, be it religion, money or some other diversion.

That said, I still try to do as you do and get the most efficient system possible which is why I proposed the boiler system. The HO can even add solar thermal or PV if desired.

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Originally Posted by SolarMike

we are all in deep s**t anyway. Udarrell, you have to remember that people are not planners, they are crisis managers. It always was and always will be. we simply don't have the collective wisdom to do what is right for the world when we are hard wired to do what we, at the time, think is best for "me" or my family. We will find any excuse to not do something when the problem is placed in front of us, be it religion, money or some other diversion.

That said, I still try to do as you do and get the most efficient system possible which is why I proposed the boiler system. The HO can even add solar thermal or PV if desired.

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Yes, you guys are all right including Mr Bill; problem is I can't help fighting for a sustainable energy & economic future; though my fight so far is in vane...

The total media focus is on the Republican presidential horse race & not a question by the media or a word in all the endless debates about the horrible energy cost pitfalls that we need to take worldwide action on before it is too late; if it is not too late already... Nor do they have a clue as to what we need to do & right now...

MEDIA has analyzed that primary race a million times with no useful value for us to put to use...

I won't be around long, but I feel for all those that will have to suffer because there was never any real political or mass media focus on the real economic enemy that will overtake them because those who could have made the difference did not have sense enough to act.

All the communication flows toward us from politicians & media &, you can't get a message to them that they will notice or act on.

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Originally Posted by SolarMike

we are all in deep s**t anyway. Udarrell, you have to remember that people are not planners, they are crisis managers. It always was and always will be. we simply don't have the collective wisdom to do what is right for the world when we are hard wired to do what we, at the time, think is best for "me" or my family. We will find any excuse to not do something when the problem is placed in front of us, be it religion, money or some other diversion.

That said, I still try to do as you do and get the most efficient system possible which is why I proposed the boiler system. The HO can even add solar thermal or PV if desired.

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Yea the worst part here is, just because I am so outspoken about this here, it makes me look like the bad guy. Well someone has to speak for folks that just just want to avoid the issue, or just don't want to let anyone here know they have the same opinion as me. I was raised to confront, not avoid, it's in my blood, so see I just can't help it. :grin2:

I give up. The last local program that was advocating energy audits have quit doing so. It is just as well, because nothing was getting changed. The last audit I did was for a hvac contractor who needed the audit to qualify his customer for a loan. Existing unit 2 ton, 8 supply vents, one homeowner living there who has the 2 vents in the basement closed because he never goes down there anymore. That leaves 6 supply vents fed by 6" ducts. They will be putting in a 2 and 1/2 ton system 'cause homeowner stated old system seemed to be struggling. Lousy envelope and nearly no insulation in attic. A loose friend of mine called me about her new system icing up. Went out there and they installed a 2 & 1/2 ton system in her house; she has 4 vents upstairs and all the vents in the basement are disconnected & sealed off 'cause she doesn't use her basement. I got into this energy auditing & the "whole house" idea thinking it was a good sollution to something that was broken. It may get fixed, but it's not going to be through any kind of energy auditing revolution; that's for sure.
Sorry to those I pissed off. You won't be getting any more gruff out of me.

Check out the movie "Idiocracy". I think I can see a connection.

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Originally Posted by tipsrfine

Sorry to those I pissed off. You won't be getting any more gruff out of me.

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Hey, I am not upset with you at all, most folks here that know me personally, know I don't roll that way. What I saw was, we were just on opposite sides of the fence, and we were doing our best to meet each other at the gate, which I think we got real close. Passions is what created most of the inventions or ideas in this world, with this issue there is just way to many folks on both sides of the fence, and both with good reasons. We all can only do so much in a days work, and we have to put our highest priorities first, if we plan on surviving. In our business, unlike the oil company's, our customers have the upper hand, they are the boss, they pay our bill's, so we are at their mercy, we can suggest, but we can't force. Bottom line from what I have witnessed, money is the biggest obstacle that keeps the a/c and heating and energy audit business and our customers decades apart, it's takes money to get the message out, no money, no message, it's that simple.

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Originally Posted by Mr Bill

Hey, I am not upset with you at all, most folks here that know me personally, know I don't roll that way. What I saw was, we were just on opposite sides of the fence, and we were doing our best to meet each other at the gate, which I think we got real close. Passions is what created most of the inventions or ideas in this world, with this issue there is just way to many folks on both sides of the fence, and both with good reasons. We all can only do so much in a days work, and we have to put our highest priorities first, if we plan on surviving. In our business, unlike the oil company's, our customers have the upper hand, they are the boss, they pay our bill's, so we are at their mercy, we can suggest, but we can't force. Bottom line from what I have witnessed, money is the biggest obstacle that keeps the a/c and heating and energy audit business and our customers decades apart, it's takes money to get the message out, no money, no message, it's that simple.

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It's the people that put 2 & 1/2 ton systems in a house with 4 6" supply registers that really teed me off. I've seen so much of that kind of slop, and I don't think that can be honestly put on the customers.

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Originally Posted by tipsrfine

It's the people that put 2 & 1/2 ton systems in a house with 4 6" supply registers that really teed me off. I've seen so much of that kind of slop, and I don't think that can be honestly put on the customers.

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I concur, same as the 148,000BTU boiler in a 50,000 BTU house.
Houses aren't viewed as a "system" by most people.



I really think Udarrell nailed it

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Originally Posted by udarrell

& not a question by the media or a word in all the endless debates about the horrible energy cost pitfalls that we need to take worldwide action on before it is too late; if it is not too late already... Nor do they have a clue as to what we need to do & right now...

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it's not really an energy crisis, it's a financial crisis.


I do however share Mr. Bill's view on business, I have to make a living as much as the next guy AND college tuition isn't cheap.

A man's got to know his limitations- Dirty Harry

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Originally Posted by tipsrfine

It's the people that put 2 & 1/2 ton systems in a house with 4 6" supply registers that really teed me off. I've seen so much of that kind of slop, and I don't think that can be honestly put on the customers.

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No you are just young and relatively inexperienced and we were all there at one time in our life.

You are wrong however not to put at least some of the blame on the homeowners. They are the ones that do not educate themselves sufficiently or do not value the knowledge that is imparted to them by well meaning enlightened technicians. A great deal of the blame does belong to uneducated uncaring technicians and contractors and worse the ones that employee salesmen that use Load calcs and audits as dog and pony show sales gimmicks.

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Originally Posted by classical

No you are just young and relatively inexperienced and we were all there at one time in our life.

You are wrong however not to put at least some of the blame on the homeowners. They are the ones that do not educate themselves sufficiently or do not value the knowledge that is imparted to them by well meaning enlightened technicians. A great deal of the blame does belong to uneducated uncaring technicians and contractors and worse the ones that employee salesmen that use Load calcs and audits as dog and pony show sales gimmicks.

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I'm 50 years old, and I don't feel young. I see it as a self perpetuating cycle between the homeowners & the contractors; it's not as old as "Which came first, the chicken or the egg", but it's getting there. Appreciate your advice & comments.