Reply to Thread

I can't imagine ASHRAE would use a bacnet vendor that wasn't at the top of their game.

Originally Posted by sysint

Well now I guess you finally are starting to understand my position. Go with works best right? Would you rather have a bad or old technological mechanical system or a good modern one? ASHRAE is clearly demonstrating modern solutions.

Why should your fieldbus or automation choice be any different?... if of course you were being objective about things.

I think in the world of bacnet ALC has by far the biggest lead. Nobody can keep up with them. It wouldn't pay to integrate everyone else's inferior product. Does ALC have a Modbus gateway? I wonder what those powerlogic meters communicated?

I hope you were joking with that statement. I have worked with 5 different BACnet lines and from my experience ALC is one of the vendors that are really lagging in their implementation of BACnet and interoperability with other product lines.

kontrol out

Originally Posted by drafty888

OK... so make my statement (for every job)...

Make the efficiency of the BUILDING & MECHANICAL system front and center instead of the interoperability of the CONTROL system.

Seems like controls were born of necessity to make systems more efficient. Somewhere along the line the controls industry jumped a track and has tried to put the focus more upon interoperability than upon the systems that controls control. Choosing between two professionals, one who knows & controls systems well and one who's an ace at interoperable systems, should be a hands down choice for the former. get back to basics... <end rant>

But you almost make it sound like they're mutually exclusive.

I lean more towards the industry got ON track with interoperability. Almost every control's system can control systems. Interoperability would be the next logical step.

I agree that they missed a great opportunity to showcase the lines. Give multiple vendors each a section and show how good and seamless it can be.

OK. That's fair. I agree with you.

Unless you could have identical variable names and properties, controller operational schemes, and not worry about communication settings you could not get this good of a result. Or, at least not without an inordinate amount of work for the project. It's because this is an ALL-ALC system is the reason for the results as they are.

Originally Posted by sysint

The purpose of it for me was to demonstrate that bacnet had absolutely nothing to do with this

i see. agreed.

Originally Posted by sysint

and I think your thoughts are that any interoperability of products would have tarnished the results. Do you agree with this?

i think that because interoperability was not the main focus of the project that ASHRAE got a good control system.

says an alc dealer to a loytec employee...

Actually, yes there are many implementations of multi-vendor without having it top-down one controls line. When sites get large is when this is typically implemented.

However, at this size and the project we are saying the same thing and I give ALC credit for their product. It's very well thought on on the front end.

The purpose of it for me was to demonstrate that bacnet had absolutely nothing to do with this and I think your thoughts are that any interoperability of products would have tarnished the results. Do you agree with this?

[QUOTE=sysint;2023642]That energy setup seems at first glance to be more effective than other "energy suites" I've witnessed.

Let's be honest here though, there isn't any good way that ALC implements this without the products being ALC.
QUOTE]

how else would you have it? isn't that the very reason that a customer would select one vendor over another, based on what they offer? guess i'm missing something, or maybe we're saying the same thing.

That energy setup seems at first glance to be more effective than other "energy suites" I've witnessed.

Let's be honest here though, there isn't any good way that ALC implements this without the products being ALC. I'm also anticipating those powerlogic meters aren't using the Modbus option and are directly wired to the pulse contacts...

EDIT- I know ALC comms to other protocols, and I now how poorly they do some of that also... However, something tells me they try to do better when it's incoming instead of outgoing...

Originally Posted by sysint

Well now I guess you finally are starting to understand my position. Go with works best right? Would you rather have a bad or old technological mechanical system or a good modern one? ASHRAE is clearly demonstrating modern solutions.

Why should your fieldbus or automation choice be any different?... if of course you were being objective about things.

I think in the world of bacnet ALC has by far the biggest lead. Nobody can keep up with them. It wouldn't pay to integrate everyone else's inferior product. Does ALC have a Modbus gateway? I wonder what those powerlogic meters communicated?

alc does make a portal to communicate to non bacnet protocols, but our standard router (LGR) has hundreds of drivers that enable comm to third party protocols, modbus included.

Originally Posted by sysint

This is hardly the average customer or an average installation. They do call the facility a "living laboratory" right?

EDIT: I see they are using Powerlogic meters. That is a nice product. -- anyway, on the screen shots what are the built-in energy routines you talk about?

see the Environmental Index screen shot? That's called a "dashboard". Energy meters (water, steam, etc) report current energy rates to subordinate equipment who in turn trim setpoints to accomdate established setpoints. Based on the relationship of energy setpoints to acutal building conditions, the environmental index is generated to display the "green performance" of the building. This can be applied at a building level, equipment level, etc. the back end work for energy shaving and reporting is built into the product. There's also discharge air trim & respond techniques built into the AHU systems that respond based on zone conditions.

Well now I guess you finally are starting to understand my position. Go with works best right? Would you rather have a bad or old technological mechanical system or a good modern one? ASHRAE is clearly demonstrating modern solutions.

Why should your fieldbus or automation choice be any different?... if of course you were being objective about things.

I think in the world of bacnet ALC has by far the biggest lead. Nobody can keep up with them. It wouldn't pay to integrate everyone else's inferior product. Does ALC have a Modbus gateway? I wonder what those powerlogic meters communicated?

OK... so make my statement (for every job)...

Make the efficiency of the BUILDING & MECHANICAL system front and center instead of the interoperability of the CONTROL system.

Seems like controls were born of necessity to make systems more efficient. Somewhere along the line the controls industry jumped a track and has tried to put the focus more upon interoperability than upon the systems that controls control. Choosing between two professionals, one who knows & controls systems well and one who's an ace at interoperable systems, should be a hands down choice for the former. get back to basics... <end rant>

This is hardly the average customer or an average installation. They do call the facility a "living laboratory" right?

EDIT: I see they are using Powerlogic meters. That is a nice product. -- anyway, on the screen shots what are the built-in energy routines you talk about?

Originally Posted by sysint

ALC always seems to get top billing with ASHRAE. I'm thinking they may be the only bacnet contractor out there. Don't you think that every bacnet contractor would have donated? I'm sure that answer is a resounding yes. Let's put it this way, I'm sure every bacnet vendor would have been more than happy to donate some controllers for every area. What I fine testament to non-commercial ASHRAE bacnet interoperability.

I can't imagine why ASHRAE didn't do it. Does anybody else have any ideas as to why they went single vendor with their premier choice for bacnet?

Gee, I wonder if that Swan guy at Alerton is upset? ASHRAE must not think much of their quality or delivery of product.

Seems that some *cough* control pros shove the interoperability issue down the customer's throat and try to make that issue front and center. Make the efficiency of the MECHANICAL system front and center instead of the interoperability of the CONTROL system.

ALC was was showcased in that project because of WebCTRL's intuitive user interface and also because of the built in energy crunching/reporting routines inherent to the ALC product. Look at the article in the ASHRAE journal, I don't think "BACNET" is mentioned more than ONCE. The focus is where it should be, on useability & how the product applies to the customer's goal, in this case a green building and selecting a system that best fits their goals. Look at the GUI screenshots on their website. None of that stuff is custom coding - they are all energy monitoring routines built into the product.

ALC always seems to get top billing with ASHRAE. I'm thinking they may be the only bacnet contractor out there. Don't you think that every bacnet contractor would have donated? I'm sure that answer is a resounding yes. Let's put it this way, I'm sure every bacnet vendor would have been more than happy to donate some controllers for every area. What I fine testament to non-commercial ASHRAE bacnet interoperability.

I can't imagine why ASHRAE didn't do it. Does anybody else have any ideas as to why they went single vendor with their premier choice for bacnet?

Gee, I wonder if that Swan guy at Alerton is upset? ASHRAE must not think much of their quality or delivery of product.

Originally Posted by sysint

I wonder why ASHRAE didn't use a multi-vendor bacnet system with their multi-vendor software or serving products?

It is still Top Secret. They dont want to pop the bubble too early.

I wonder why ASHRAE didn't use a multi-vendor bacnet system with their multi-vendor software or serving products?

Why Carrier? Because of the same parent company? Looks like they went with Climate Master and Daiken if it makes any difference.

I would think Carrier has alittle to do with it too.