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Originally Posted by SuperChill

I have truly learned that you can not look at someone and predict where they will end up. I have students from from every backround that you can think of but the one thing they share is that they could not qualify for the student loans and could not pay out of pocket. I am training women who you would never think would be great mechanics by looking at them.This forum is going to result in increased placements for my students because most people in the field dont participate or volunteer at there local trade schools and give no input.It it mandatory that we create an advisory council and get input from the real world but most guys dont want to get involved and that hurts all the new students that you will all have to train and teach once they leave the schools.

Well, I'm not suggesting that one should "look at" someone to determine their suitability.

Some women have it in their nature to be good mechanics. That same nature makes them nurses, doctors, and engineers. So, most of the talented women will more likely end up in those other fields, because the fact that they have a talent set that is more often associated with males makes them more valuable, particularly in these days of enforced "equality."

I can spend a few hours with someone and be able to tell if they can mentally connect the dots, show the curiosity for science, and converse on technically oriented topics when they have not even begun to study those topics. If they are not that guy, then yes, they can be mechanics, but they will be mediocre mechanics.

Here is the key:

the industry must be willing to properly compensate its best people. If it remains as it is now, those who COULD be good mechanics will never enter the field, because those other jobs have a better future.

You know.

Nurses, doctors, engineers.......


Now I ask you, if we fail to recruit the right people.... who will be the future of this industry?

Organization, honesty, not afraid to ask for help,

Thanks Atlas! I have a grooming and hygein policy for men in my program since most of my guys are 18-25 and never really been taught how much appearance matters .

I have truly learned that you can not look at someone and predict where they will end up. I have students from from every backround that you can think of but the one thing they share is that they could not qualify for the student loans and could not pay out of pocket. I am training women who you would never think would be great mechanics by looking at them.This forum is going to result in increased placements for my students because most people in the field dont participate or volunteer at there local trade schools and give no input.It it mandatory that we create an advisory council and get input from the real world but most guys dont want to get involved and that hurts all the new students that you will all have to train and teach once they leave the schools.

Originally Posted by timebuilder

Since this thread has been called out of its tomb like Lazarus, let me add a little more.

"Vetting" does not imply "elitism." It indicates "discernment."

Every medical and law school decides who will be admitted. In fact, every college worth a tinker's dam has some sort of metric that it uses to assure itself that the student body has what it considers to be the right complement of students. Many schools use "racial diversity" as a metric, or "gender equality." Of course, they have nothing to do with aptitude or ability to succeed in any given feild, but it makes the public and the school's trustees feel better about themselves. Sometime, we elect a President to make us feel better about ourselves, which is a very expensive proposition.

At any rate, the idea is that not every potential HVAC student should be that. Some should be something else, and to try and make them into HVAC grads is a waste of resources of time and money. It is better for all concerned to be mindful of the student who can benefit from a given program, versus those who cannot.

That's not elitism. It is survival of the species.

Following along with TB's thinking: Someone that is totally right-brained (non-technically minded), lets say someone who is SOOO 10 thumbed, they cannot even remember which way to turn a screwdriver to tighten or loosen... Is HVAC really a good place for them... OR,

Would they be better (and as a result happier) as, say, a musician?

We have this idea anyone can do anything... yet we have totally ignored that folks are BORN with a bent towards certain things and a significant LACK of ability in other things.

Would it not be better if we found out what was the best thing for each person... and encouraged them in that direction?
NO, this is not profiling... it is actually in the best interest of the person.

For me it is a candidate who is honest, dependable, can pass a drug test, has a clean driving record, can work safely and understands the field they are getting into requires hard work, long hours and a life time of learning. Trade schools should provide a solid foundation for the candidate to learn the basics of HVAC, but most of the learning will be done on the job. It's okay to make mistakes (we all do it every day) but learn from them and try not to make them again. A candidate should take pride in their work. Communication and appearance matter when dealing with customers and the company the technician will work for one day.

Most schools require a high school diploma, a 30 question multiple choice test you must get 17 right. And a check that wont bounce. Thats what it takes to get in. What should it take to graduate?

Originally Posted by SuperChill

Vetting is a dirty word because it implies elitism of some sort, I am going to find a test of some sort like they do in corporate america in order to weed out those who really are not ready to make the commitment . I understand the importance of having the ability to work with your hands, I think every man should take shop or something similiar and be able to work with his hands but it gets frustrating watching some kid not appply himself when I know how important it is for a man to be able to suppport and provide for his family and a trade is a way to do it .

Since this thread has been called out of its tomb like Lazarus, let me add a little more.

"Vetting" does not imply "elitism." It indicates "discernment."

Every medical and law school decides who will be admitted. In fact, every college worth a tinker's dam has some sort of metric that it uses to assure itself that the student body has what it considers to be the right complement of students. Many schools use "racial diversity" as a metric, or "gender equality." Of course, they have nothing to do with aptitude or ability to succeed in any given feild, but it makes the public and the school's trustees feel better about themselves. Sometime, we elect a President to make us feel better about ourselves, which is a very expensive proposition.

At any rate, the idea is that not every potential HVAC student should be that. Some should be something else, and to try and make them into HVAC grads is a waste of resources of time and money. It is better for all concerned to be mindful of the student who can benefit from a given program, versus those who cannot.

That's not elitism. It is survival of the species.

Unfortunately no , HVAC is a big money maker in schooling and no one wants to walk away from that

Thanks for your input everyone ,everytime I read your responses I get stronger as an instructor and my students benefit from your wisdom .

I'll be honest, I have a lot of interest in someday starting or helping a non-profit HVAC school. I would focus on low income areas where it's "hard to find a job" and here's why. When kids grow up poor and with no apparent prospects there will almost always be one who gets the "hunger"(just look at the nfl, a lot of athletes are low income and found a way out), they desperately seek out a way to prove themselves and give great loyalty to someone who takes them in and mentors them, opens the door if you will. Anyone could apply to this school, they would be promised nothing or even lead to believe there was anything to be gained but a chance, the first month would be a brutal bootcamp, hottest part of the year, running, climbing, pulling things up onto platforms, nothing about HVAC except that you make it clear they know nothing, you yell at them with the intent of making them cry(sounds harsh I know), this would eliminate 50-75% by the end of the month but the ones that are left you at least know they can handle the physicality and the psychological mind fing that may not happen every day in this industry but it will happen at some point, if they are still there they get a shot at step 2.

By now you have beaten it into there heads during the earlier training that if they fail the upcoming drug test, they are fired. If they show up more than 15minutes late with no prior heads up, they are fired(I've been guilty of this but not when I was new). If they get on their phone during a non approved phone time, they are fired. By fired I mean you expell them from your program(everyone is welcome to come back and try again the next year). During step two you introduce them to residential HVAC equipment, in person with equipment that has been hopefully donated. You have a cut list of every part used on common equipment and you work through THEM finding that part and learning what it does, you tie this in with class time of diagrams and illustrations as well. Once they can visually identify every part, name what it does, and describe how it works, you turn on the equipment and now they SEE it operate, and start learning how those parts and functions interect. You take it one step at time, cut the blower off, what happens?, cut the condenser motor off, what happens?, lower the charge, what happens?, on and on and on. Once they can tell you how the parts work and how they relate you start polishing the prospects. They should already be cleaned up in appearance through all this but now you work on the resume and the interview. They will tell the interviewer abou their undying passion for this industry, they will tell the interviewer that they do what they are told with enthusiasm and to the best of ther abilities because they cherish the opportunity to have a career as wonderful as HVAC. In the background you would be networking with owners, letting them know about your program and that you are creating the best mold of new HVAC employees, hard working, reliable and willing to adapt. By only putting out graduates who are hungry for it and desperate to raise to the top your schools record will quickly speak for itself and owners will be calling YOU asking for who's ready.

There will even be some who couldn't hack it at first but after the wake up call that was your boot up their a** they might make it through after the 2nd attempt. Sometimes people just need a wakeup call to get moving.

If I've learned one thing in this industry, aside from that I know nothing, it's that the strongest(mentally, a little physically), most dedicated, and hungriest(knowledge, advancement) rise to the top and get through the adversity.

Now we just have to figure out a way to have good companies for these new hires to go to : )!

Originally Posted by Urbanrider

SuperChill, do you know of any schools like yours (non profit) in the So Cal area ?
I'm in the Orange County area and am looking for a non profit school because most of the "for profit" schools suck. All they want is your $$ and hand you a piece of paper that says your qualified with little to NO help getting a real job. Any input from anyone on this would be greatly appreciated.

Here's a tip, learn spanish, You will greatly improve your possibilties for job placement after schooling.

SuperChill, do you know of any schools like yours (non profit) in the So Cal area ?
I'm in the Orange County area and am looking for a non profit school because most of the "for profit" schools suck. All they want is your $$ and hand you a piece of paper that says your qualified with little to NO help getting a real job. Any input from anyone on this would be greatly appreciated.

Back to the OP

Originally Posted by SuperChill

...Just what exactly would you that work in the trade like to see in a new tech. fresh out of school ? What kind of training did you yourself get that you feal was of great benefit to you in getting that first shot in your careers... !

I want to see a "new tech, fresh out of school" that understand that he may have knowledge but lacks experience ! They don't/can't "Know it all", Ever !!!!!!!!!!!!

I want to see someone that has a solid work ethic (as many have refered to previously). That means give at least 99%, 110% of every hour they are at work.

I expect them to know how to conduct themselves with bacic civility and show respect to EVERYONE, even when they don't deserve it !!!! Especially Me, cause I can be a real Jerk sometimes

IMO, as an instructor you cannot "Teach" someone how to troubleshoot problems. My definition of troubleshooting is.. Using Diagnostics and experience to analyze the situation and select the highest probaility of failure. You cannot troubleshoot a problem unless you KNOW how to diagnosis it and have the experience to make educated guesses (yes I said guesses) to quickly find the problem. Teach Diagnostic Techniques and procedures, they will learn through experience how to "Troubleshoot" !

I want them to have a solid respect for tools. Their own and even more for other peoples.

I expect them to own their own basic tools. Not $1.49 screwdrivers, $3.99 Lock joint pliers and $9.99 sockets sets, decent tools.

I want them to know what their DMM can/cannot measure and how to actually use the dang thing. Like, how to use the Amps scale to jumper and AC circuit (<10 amps) instead of using a jumper that melts in their hands and that they should always Ohm the fuses before they condem a 3 phase motor.

I could go on but I think you get the idea SuperChill.

Good luck, you will need that and tons of dedication and determination.

Controls Cause Insanity

^^^^ speak for the USA are we??


Canada has some awesome trade schools as well as the bad bunch.

I went thru machinist mate A school in the navy and we all graduated and it was alot of studying and memorizing but they set us up for success not failure like the schools in the real world.

We need experienced guys like yourself to volunteer at a local trade schools for hvac ( non profit of course-not the $ 9000-30,000 deals-they make a isht load of money and can pay you for your time) and let us know what you want, let the students hear it from you -the pro's about what its really like out there .

Vetting is a dirty word beacuse it implies elitism of some sort, I am going to find a test of some sort like they do in corporate america in order to weed out those who really are not ready to make the commitment . I understand the importance of having the ability to work with your hands, I think every man should take shop or something similiar and be able to work with his hands but it gets frustrating watching some kid not appply himself when I know how important it is for a man to be able to suppport and provide for his family and a trade is a way to do it .

There was a time when excellence was the goal... now we think schools that mooch off govt waste are legitimate organizations...

Anyone wonder why our country is going down the tubes.

Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech

I realized in the 1970's that education was a business for profit... not an opportunity for enlightenment. And with govt handouts growing on trees... why should the schools do anything else than play the govt game and get the bucks.

The aircraft mechanics program I went through in the mid 1970's... less than 10% graduated... yet close to 80% were on GI bill (Viet Nam vets). Now I am all for giving vets a chance... however it was obvious the school was about ONE thing... milking the govt. I could have learned more in 90 days on the internet (yeah, it was not available then); than I learned in 24 mos of 5 nights a week until midnite.

What I did learn was to 'stick it out'... and was rewarded with an "A&P" license... which is a license to work on airframes and powerplants, issued by the FAA. I do not use it anymore, as the insurance is WAAAY too expensive to do free-lance aircraft maintenance, and working for the airlines is a graveyard job... which is not my cup of tea.

Back on subject... the school was a joke... unless the goal was to get everyone except the ones who would endure ANYTHING to work on airplanes to quit... well they did get rid of close to 90% of the folks us taxpayers paid to go to school for awhile.

I see the schools point of view. And the imformation is their if you want it. I could not have learned what i have so far by myself online (even with this forum). Im just say'n.