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The real thrill is on the service side of controls. Install is working with the 'prints' DOWN; Service
is working UP w/o the prints! Reminds me of that "Steealers Wheel" song:

Well I don't know why I came here tonight,
I got the feeling that something ain't right,
I'm so scared in case I fall off my chair,
And I'm wondering how I'll get down the stairs,
Clowns to the left of me,
Jokers to the right, here I am,
Stuck in the middle with you.

Originally Posted by Knife Switch

There are some awesome relies on here, I found myself saying "Hell Yeah!" alot. Definitely being blamed for every problem until you can prove otherwise (Hence my signature).

To be good at controls, you really do need to find it interesting, then you'll find yourself on here, and other places on the internet in your own time, seeing what's out there.

You'll also eventually go a bit mad. All the good guys @ controls I know are either a little bit or a lot mad. One end of the spectrum is the chaotic guy, the other end is the hyper organized guy. Both are equally nuts, but don't be too quick to judge anyone you meet like this, they all have valuable things to teach you.

The most enjoyable part of it is the feeling of being across the whole building, all of the systems. You don't have to answer to many people on site (apart from who you'd exect), and they can't micro manage you because they can't see or understand what you're doing.

I thought that was only here in NYC. Glad we are not the only ones going mad (in a good way).

Controls has a funny effect on people. No matter how nuts I go, i will always love the thrill of this line of work.

Originally Posted by Knife Switch

I wish I had a copy to post of a recent spec that said how the front end had to be at minimum a 486 processor and gave a page of specs that were minimum ten years out of date

At least it said "at least 486" if it said a 486 processor must be provided, then you would had a job finding a suitable computer.

I wish I had a copy to post of a recent spec that said how the front end had to be at minimum a 486 processor and gave a page of specs that were minimum ten years out of date

The control guy is one who can politely inform an engineer who's got a Masters degree (and who won an energy-saving contact) that his SOO is unpractical and unrealistic (and basically full of B.S.). There are times when the control guy has to deal with folks who make/design things much more difficult than need be. K.I.S.S. engineering comes from common sense, experience (and Forums like this).

Yours truly has to deal with this SOO for a new High School science bldg (No. Calif):

Cooling Mode: When the the system in the "Cooling Mode" the AHU will provide cooled air or unconditioned air, depending on the zone conditions. The supply air temperature will be determined:
1. Every 30 minutes (user adj. input) a geometrically weighted average deviation from setpoint is calculated using the following formula:
a) Deviation Average = a(Wi x (Ti - T_Room_SP)/a(Wi). Where Wi = weighting, T_Room_SP = the zone setpoint, Ti = Zone Temps.
b) If the deviation (Deviation_average) is greater than 2F then the coil valve will modulate to provide a supply temperature 65F (user adj. input). Else if the OAT is greater or equal to 75F, the coil valve will modulate to provide a supply air temp. of 70F (user adj. input).
c) Else if the OAT is less than 75F, the coil valve will be closed and unconditioned outdoor air will be provide (user adj.input)

The "geometrically weighted average deviation" logic was eventually ripped out of the code.

There are some awesome relies on here, I found myself saying "Hell Yeah!" alot. Definitely being blamed for every problem until you can prove otherwise (Hence my signature).

To be good at controls, you really do need to find it interesting, then you'll find yourself on here, and other places on the internet in your own time, seeing what's out there.

You'll also eventually go a bit mad. All the good guys @ controls I know are either a little bit or a lot mad. One end of the spectrum is the chaotic guy, the other end is the hyper organized guy. Both are equally nuts, but don't be too quick to judge anyone you meet like this, they all have valuable things to teach you.

The most enjoyable part of it is the feeling of being across the whole building, all of the systems. You don't have to answer to many people on site (apart from who you'd exect), and they can't micro manage you because they can't see or understand what you're doing.

Originally Posted by Cagey57

I will no longer tell the MC what their problem is only that is is NOT a controls problem. They have a habit of using the TC guy to do their mechanical troubleshooting/diagnostic work for them. In the last few years the MC's only have a few real Techs and they keep them on the big problems not Bid-Spec jobs. Just sayin' !

MC's and GC's have no idea how busy the "controls guy" is, nor do they care. Usually the "controls guy" is more capable than any of the MC technicians to troubleshoot any problems. MC's tend to use "installers" and while they may be skilled and knowledgeable installers, they usually do not have experience in trouble shooting or service. That being said, I have learned as you have that on a project like this I test to see if my end is working properly and if it is i simply tell them "I'm calling for it but its not running, we will need to get contractor x to check it out".

It gets real fun when we are the MC as well.

Hvac wiz 79,
Believe it or not, you have an advantage. After the Navy, I have worked as a pipe fitter, tin worker, HVAC tech (residential, commercial, and industrial), plumber, electronics tech, BAS tech and designer to present. I have assisted other HVAC personnel not to cross over, but converge into BAS tech/designer. You probably already understand electronics, but now get on the computer and learn your way through the digital world. As you can tell; I like to see HVAC personnel willing to learn a new field. Contact any major controls company and find a mentor or just be willing to take on a shadow. Don't be afraid of technology; embrace it and find the opportunity to use current knowledge.

I love when cutting over existing equipment on jobs, and then hearing "it works fine for years". When you can finally see all the bad valves binding damper and broken actuators on a pretty graphic, I get the blame. Not the years of neglect.

Originally Posted by ncboston

haha. It sounds like you must have done work for the same people I used to work for.

Not the same people but people with the same level (or Lack) of experience.

Kind of a hi-jack but...

I have one customer that says "Graphics make dumb people think they are smart". I have to agree to a great degree.

But I will keep doing controls as long as my Head doesn't explode or implode from stress or from other peoples stupidity.

Deals with stupid questions from people that have no clue how the Mechanical Equipment works let alone how the BAS controls it all but they looked at a picture (graphic) and some little spinney thing wasn't going round and round so "it must be a controls problem" !

haha. It sounds like you must have done work for the same people I used to work for.

To answer the OP.

The "Control Guy" does the following, Takes the Control system design and :
1. programs the field controllers.
2. combines all the field controllers and all other related control stuff (OEM units, etc) into a network connected to a supervisory controller (Head End).
3. creates all needed Head End logic to perform the SOO and what ever else some crazy engineer dreamed up
4. Combines the above into a GUI, if required.
5. Coordinates the access or connection of the Supervisory Controller to the end users LAN and/or the Web.
6. Works with the IT people to generate messaging/alarming as needed.
7. Works with the TAB and Cx people to finalize the job.
8. Trains the End User on the entire system (half of which they forget)
9. Hopefully gets to provide Service on the system after the warranty (at a profit this time)!

10 through 63 (warranty period)... Deals with stupid questions from people that have no clue how the Mechanical Equipment works let alone how the BAS controls it all but they looked at a picture (graphic) and some little spinney thing wasn't going round and round so "it must be a controls problem" !

Originally Posted by skwsproul

"Its ALWAYS controls"... A good service tech will find out what is wrong to the best of their ability before calling on controls. A good controls tech will find out what is wrong to the best of their ability before calling on service. The ability of a technician to figure out what the problem is, is normally only limited by specialized training or tools whether it be controls or service. Do not just assume that it is another departments issue and dismiss the problem. If you are dismissing problems, you will soon find that you are dismissing customers. Always try to put yourself in the customers shoes, they do not understand how it works or want to know. They just want it fixed efficiently and as cost effective as possible, paying for 2 techs is usually not a comforting thing for a customer... "Its NEVER controls"

Agree 100% as it relates to service ! However...

In Bid-Spec the Mechanical Contractor/GC ALWAYS blame controls first. We (the "Controls guys"), are always the last one in the building/in front of the customer. After spending years troubleshooting problems, confirming mechanical issues and NOT controls then telling the MC what it (their Mechanical Problem) was I finally wised up (yea, I know, my problem. Too many years in service I guess) ! I will no longer tell the MC what their problem is only that is is NOT a controls problem. They have a habit of using the TC guy to do their mechanical troubleshooting/diagnostic work for them. In the last few years the MC's only have a few real Techs and they keep them on the big problems not Bid-Spec jobs. Just sayin' !

Originally Posted by Cagey57

No Dude, Both !In the trades (install/service/on-site) since 80', controls guy since 95'. I can't even think of doing anything else, it's a love hate thing now !

Sorry, and good luck !!!!!!!!!

Lol, actually that somehow gives me confidence that i'm making the right move.

"Its ALWAYS controls"... A good service tech will find out what is wrong to the best of their ability before calling on controls. A good controls tech will find out what is wrong to the best of their ability before calling on service. The ability of a technician to figure out what the problem is, is normally only limited by specialized training or tools whether it be controls or service. Do not just assume that it is another departments issue and dismiss the problem. If you are dismissing problems, you will soon find that you are dismissing customers. Always try to put yourself in the customers shoes, they do not understand how it works or want to know. They just want it fixed efficiently and as cost effective as possible, paying for 2 techs is usually not a comforting thing for a customer... "Its NEVER controls"

I want to learn controls. I'm very interested in that side. I just have no clue where to begin. I deal with BMS everyday . . Just as the guy calling in to different companies who run the sites I handle the mechanical end of. Many times over my knowledge of the equipment help them out, vice versa ... where does one find out the how other than working as an apprentice?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

Originally Posted by 22nomo

... I think I may be turning into a controls guy or a need my head examined.

No Dude, Both !In the trades (install/service/on-site) since 80', controls guy since 95'. I can't even think of doing anything else, it's a love hate thing now !

Sorry, and good luck !!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by mechdorn

Good for you! I spent my time doing service work, no regrets. Control work is harder on the head and less on the body. My company tries to protect the senior service guys from the heavy duty stuff. They still get it for the big stuff, even though they have help, it still makes for a ball breaking day. On a cold day, cranes, rigging, all the stuff that has to put on the roof, it can make for a lousy day at work. When I need to drag my PC to the roof with a couple of tools and a meter, I know that's pretty much physically all I need to do.

Thanks, I have heard some of the others say it can give you a slight advantage knowing how the equipment is supposed to work. That does make sense and i'm not new to computers just this level of programming. The more i play with building programs the more interesting it is becoming as i sit here close to bedtime typing,lol. the alarm goes off at 4:00am and i'll start again. The way i look at it is if I keep this up in a few years I should be fairly accomplished in controls, at least that is the plan..we'll see. Like you I still go out on problem jobs as well and probably will for sometime still, but thats ok, I still like it as it has been my livelyhood for thirty years and I find hard to turn my back on it completely. Although I think it will happen eventually.

Originally Posted by desert guy

Programming isn't everyone's cup of tea. The PCG stuff isn't half bad and there are a few resources if your here in the Phoenix Area.

I am in the Phoenix area. Don't take that wrong, i'm not complaining. I remember when I was still learning the service side, i went home plenty of times with my eyes and head hurting. So I look on this as the same learning curve. The first plunge there is a lot to learn.

Originally Posted by 22nomo

I have been in this industry for thirty years now, in the service side of it mostly. A few months back I took my first course for BACnet MS/TP training. They offered us a small training package that included the tools cd, bluetooth connector and PCG controller for a very good price. I bought it myself cause the company balked at the price which I thought was very reasonable. I have since built a training board for myself and a couple of the guys that went thru the class with me. I have already put in many, many hours of my own time building my little trainer and learning this stuff and I know it is only the surface of a deep pool (hole?). I did some controls work on older systems, Alerton, Novar, Tracer/Tracker, even Carrier Parker but nothing like this. I must say it is very difficult at the beginning but at the same time it is very interesting to design your own program. My eyes hurt, my head hurts and my wife says I mumble about things she says to me as being BI or AI. I spent the Christmas holiday week off finishing my trainer and playing with the program. I think I may be turning into a controls guy or a need my head examined.

Good for you! I spent my time doing service work, no regrets. Control work is harder on the head and less on the body. My company tries to protect the senior service guys from the heavy duty stuff. They still get it for the big stuff, even though they have help, it still makes for a ball breaking day. On a cold day, cranes, rigging, all the stuff that has to put on the roof, it can make for a lousy day at work. When I need to drag my PC to the roof with a couple of tools and a meter, I know that's pretty much physically all I need to do.