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good advice

I have to agree with my competitor, hackman. Most all gas inserts are good. Almost anybody's insert beats the hell out of anybody's vented or VF logs as far as being practical.
Some like chocolate, some like vanilla....

Like hackman said, any stove shop worth their salt will guide you in your choice. Also, nothing beats seeing the flames and finished look. The most important thing is that you, as the consumer, make an educated decision.

Happy hunting!

I love the response about your mendota! It's not even cold out yet and you enjoy it. You don't even know how much more you will enjoy it until it's 28 degrees out and you're nice and toasty inside.

All of the brands you mention are very good too and there is definitely something out there for everyone.

For the shopper out there, go to a professional and give them a test ride before deciding which to get - just combine a good balance of performance with cosmetic design.

You will be delighted.

Originally posted by lit'l cat
Ok Hearthman, I admit my thinking is a bit bizarre & I am wrong. Can you reccomend any gas direct vent inserts that will fit into a masonry fireplace?

I'm a homeowner who just had an insert installed. After checking the major brands on the internet and in the local stores, including Travis Industries (Fireplace Extrordinair, Lopi, and Avalon), Heat & Glo, Regency/Hampton, Lennox, Vermont Castings, and Jotul, I settled on a Mendota. I like having the dual burners, two blowers, and the most beautiful range of optional fronts.
Al

gas inserts

see the link in my post above. The Heat & Glo Firebrick inserts

Ok Hearthman, I admit my thinking is a bit bizarre & I am wrong. Can you reccomend any gas direct vent inserts that will fit into a masonry fireplace?

doing it the hard way

Why would you want to do unnecessary surgery on a masonry fireplace? All you have to do it shove an isert into the Fp opening, connect the aluminum liners and gas. No need to blow holes in walls. The other thing is dimensions: inserts fit fireplace openings. Let's say you were given a typical gas direct vent Fp. It is twice as tall the insert. It was designed for typical frame construction-- not as an insert. How are you going to close in the gaps around it? Inserts have trim panels to do this. Please do yourself a favor and don't try to reinvent the wheel.

Hi Hearthman,

As you can tell, chemistry definately wasnt my major in school.

Actually, Im at my Mom's & my brother was cooking on her gas stove w/o the exhaust on (3 burners & the oven working) & I actually started to smell a strong wiff of gas. I just went in & turned on the exhaust over the stove. Thanks!! Plus I told him to always use the exhaust from now on!

Quick ? about fireplace inserts. I currently have a 'normal' wood burning FP & wd like to install a gas direct vent insert. My idea is to cut the bricks for the vent instead of liner all the way from the top. But the FP co. that did my mom's condo sd you cant cut thru the back wall of the FP to vent it.

what do you think & also what are some good inserts to consider. (My mom has a heat-n=glo)

As always, thanks again for all your advice

choices

Lil' Cat, I'm sorry but some of your abbreviations make it tough reading.

Gas stoves typically do not have an integral vent pipe attached. The venting is left up to a separate hood/fan mounted above the burners and hopefully someone will turn it on. Yes, a liner is always a good idea for gas appliances vented into masonry chimneys as long as it is sized and installed properly. You need to get your terminology correct-- it is a CO alarm, not CO2. You are exhaling CO2 right now. As far as how good your Costco alarm is, I guess something is better than nothing. It should be listed to UL 2034 but just understand those UL listed units aren't really sensitive enough. If you really want professional protection, you'll need to spend about $185 at the Nat'l Comfort Institute. Their alarm protects against chronic low level CO.

If you are looking at fireplaces, you want one listed to ANSI Z21.88. If it says Z21.11.2b, it is ventfree. Go to http://www.fireplaces.com for some choices.
HTH,

I just converted to gas from oil. I eventually want:

Gas stove & gas H20 heater. (and direct vent FP if possible & if I ever come up w/xtra$)

Anyway, this discussion about unvented stoves & H20 heaters has me concerned.

what kind of stove do I ask for? How will I know its vented outside. Are you talking about an exhaust fan over the stove that vents to the outside?

what about H20 heaters. My contractor sd he wd line the chimney to vent the H20 heater. Are yall talking about something else that needs to be done in addition?

Also, I have a CO2 moniter from Costco. My contractor sd that wd be fine for my new gas furnace. Is it ???


thanks,
Lit'l Cat

H2O and more H2O and more H2O = 100% RH!

Discussing this with my son (Chemical Engineer from U of M))this morning, burning CH4 for 100,000 BTU will generate approximately 1 gallon of water. Then if we assume at 70º F, the saturation water vapor density is about 0.0011 lbs/ft³. Then for a house with 18,000ft³of air, adding a gallon of water vapor will raise the RH from 30% to 72% (Norm can you confirm the math)

Therefore, in addition to buying a CO detector, buy a hygrometer and watch the mold grow!

This is the reason I never recommend a vent-less fireplace, but if you do, OPEN THE WINDOW for Combustion Air and Air Exchange to "Dry/Dilute" the inside RH!

I am also a repairman for a gas utility, ive seen many VF equipment that works without problems. No product can be made idiot proof. Alot of installers and consumers never look at the installation manual. Our biggest campaign now is innsufficient make up air in a building for the total btu load. Dryers are the biggest problem causing the negative pressure in a home. When you introduce a flame to a cold surface your going to produce co, example the diverter plate above the burner in a stove oven, not uncommon to have 800 ppm co on start up, thats why you should never use a oven for space heating, you should also crack open kitchen window on thanksgiving and christmas for those all day cooking events. Do I have a unvented space heater in my family room, Yup. I have plenty of make up air, unit is properly installed and maintained. The aldehyde odor is a dead give away of a problem, customers also need to be aware of using oil based products around an open flame, i see this all the time (smells like charcoal lighter fluid for the most part). They use wood preen, pledge, kids spray painting in the garage ect will cause it. If you use the fuel gas code book and installation booklet you should be ok. When i run the space heater i shut off my humidifier on the furnace, if i remember right a 100k btu used will discharge a gal of water vapor.

<<Quite frankly, I'm a helluva lot more afraid of Cat.1 water heaters and gas cook stoves. I have seen these backdraft easily. I have treated CO victims from gas ovens back when I was a paramedic. Why is it gas ovens are not required to interlock the exhaust fan to the burners? Heck, I've seen tons that don't even vent to the outdoors. They often now use those microwave/fans set up to recirculate and filter (joke) rather than exhaust.
>>


When I was a gas utility repairman, I investigated hundreds of complaints of possible carbon monoxide problems in homes and businesses.

Gravity vented furnaces and boilers were the most dagerous offenders, since the combination of a plugged chimney, defective combustion and high gas consumption could put a lot of CO in a home.

Water heaters can also be a problem, but produced relatively few actual problems. Even when the chimney was plugged, the burners tended to be relatively unlikely to produce a lot of CO.

Oven burners tended to be a fairly common source of CO and aldehyde odors. And occasionally I'd find a range burner pilot light that was dirty and creating a considerable amound of CO in a small apartment.

In my independent repair business, I testified as an expert witness for a homeowner in a new house who went to the hospital with CO poisoning. The unvented fireplace was installed by the general contractor, and the logs hadn't been installed correctly. That's all it took to send the woman to the hospital.

The fireplace combustion gasses were producing about 60 PPM CO due to this defect in installation. When I installed the logs correctly, the CO produced was not measurable.

When I was reading the directions for installing the logs, I found them complicated and very difficult to follow. I probably spent twenty minutes or more reading the instructions before I figured out how to do it. I'm sure the contractor installed the logs intuitively, which resulted in the injury of the homeowner.

Personally, I generally refuse to service unvented equipment ---it's not worth the risk. If someone is injured, I would expect that anyone who has touched the equipment, even years earluier, will be sued. Who needs that kind of liability? That also probably contributes to added difficulties in getting servive for such equipment.

Finally, I will concede that IF one follows ALL the instructions and warnings manufacturers provide with unvented equipment, they can no doubt be operated with a high degree of safety. But that means that I should be able to devise an examination based on the instruction manual which the owner will be able to pass. And any visitor or tenant should be able to pass that same examination at any time.

As a practical matter, I've never found an owner or user of unvented equipment who was aware of all the details of how such a fireplace was operated, and therefore have never met someone who should be operating such equipment.

The margin of safety is just too low, in my opinion. In theory, such equipment CAN be operated safely. In practice, people are running significant risks should the equipment malfunction.



Seattle Pioneer

H20!

What has not been discussed is the impact on indoor RH. Burning natural gas is the most efficient way to add water vapor to the air especially if the appliance is set up and operating correctly!

With tight homes I have seen and read the impact on RH when the homeowner uses a non-vented fireplace. “Sarcastically” it is better then either a by-pass or powered humidifier for increasing the RH in a home!

Here is a great link that covers the topic of Lung Vented Gas Appliances.

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hovntlss.htm

on and on and on

I have continued to read all of your responses for the last few days and have not responded - just to see what everyone was saying. I think that all of your input has been extremely insightful and certainly from the heart. I myself prefer direct vent fireplaces and stoves and show that as a first option for a customer. Since I have EXTENSIVE experience in selling, using, and servicing vent free appliances, I can tell you that I have never encountered any of the EXTREME conditions that you elaborate on. I have never seen or experienced these conditions that you are so afraid of; and I know many people in our industry that have been selling the same types of vent free appliances for years and I have never heard of any of these conditions from any of them either. Even the moisture issue which I have heard about but have never witnessed, is a non-issue - maybe our region is cold and dry enough or maybe the problems are cumulative with other factors in a building such as shade, poor construction practices or just plain oversizing of an appliance.

I am not saying that problems never occur, but it is far and few between and usually correctable with routine maintenance which we promote. Hey, there are plenty of sleazy companies out there and selling things they have no business handling, but in the right hands vent free can be a great option for a homeowner.

Look, I am not trying to convert anyone to the Dark Side of the Force or anything, but don't make claims about products that you evidently have only cursory experience with. After you have a few hundred under your belt will you completely understand my perspective. I do not expect that to happen, but I won't bash things I don't know about 100%, and I only support things I know about 100%.

My distinqushed colleague from HTH makes very good points with exact facts and raises concerns, but yet is only cautionary with regards to the vent free products. I am sure he also prefers the direct vent option and have no problem that. But he seems much more diplomatic about any concerns he may have.

I say again that I respect all of your thoughts and questions on this subject and it re-enforces the need for careful qualification of every customer with any hearth appliance. Just as going through the NFI testing has made me more thoughtful and careful about every project I am involved in, so has the dialogue in this forum which is important. In order to be professional it is important not to ignore the training.

Thank you for your input.

OSHA says that any level below 19.5% may be hazardous. At 19.5% there is 75,000 ppm of some other gas in the air. Here is an interesting link.
http://www.occupationalhazards.com/s...le.php?id=1502
I just can't get comfortable with vent-free.
And gas ranges bother me too.

Re: O2 levels

Originally posted by hearthman
Ask any Canadian from B.C. about soggy closets and mold.

Which is why we are ahead of the curve in two ways.
1. We have some of the most stringent ventilation codes in North America.
2. Ventless fireplaces are not allowed.

O2 levels

Ambient air contains about 20.9% O2. People and fire both need about 16%. The ANSI Stds require an ODS shutoff at 18%. Some kickout at 18.5%. What happends is the flame spead slows to the point the flame has advanced past the thermocouple shutting it down. It does not cause a soft, yellow tipped flame to curl away from the TC--that's from a dirty primary air hole.

So the theory is, as long as you have 18% O2 or more, you shouldn't be getting enough incomplete combustion to make significant levels of CO and aldehydes. That has been repeaterdly demonstrated in the lab. What has not happended is a scientific double blind field study of actual installations. As Norm points out, the original owners may be educated and conscientious. The future owners are an unknown. Also, maintenance tends to slide over time. People get accustomed to ambient odors in their homes.

There are two distinct areas of concern:
What's happening in the combustion zone?
What's happening to the house as a whole? Therein lies the great debate. A highly touted study released to the industry at Nashville was based on computer modelling. It did not take into account what happens to the Rh% when room air migrates to cold areas such as closets on exterior walls? The air cools to dewpoint, the RH% goes up, and you get condensation. Ask any Canadian from B.C. about soggy closets and mold. Wall penetrations such as light switches can channel moisture into the interstitial spaces where it can condense out. Therefore, these studies need to account for such real world situations.

Norm, my point about the courts was simply that until enough evidence is presented and sold to a court as in litigation, VF will continue. As long as someone can make money, they will continue selling it. Just look at jar candles. They've been sued a lot and lost. Still, the awards don't come close to the $5BILLION dollar industry/yr.

Have a good one!

Originally posted by rich pickering
20.9?

So, at what level will the pilot shut off?

Good question Rich. Let's let the CO and ventless experts who sell these things tell us the answer to that question.

When they do, I have a series of additional questions that I would like them to answer.

You see, at one time long, long ago when I did not know better I installed a few ventless systems. Then I got a little educated and having the open mind that I have, learned how potentially dangerous they actually are. For all the same reasons some of the better local building codes outlaw them.

Norm

20.9?

So, at what level will the pilot shut off?