Reply to Thread

Are the problems with just access controllers or have people been seeing lots of problems with the HVAC controllers as well. Just wondering because we are currently installing Circon in about 20 schools.

"It really shows scince there really hasnt been any new develpoment in the R&D department. " -- I don't think they really have much R&D going on. Very quiet with some who have jumped ship.

Here is what's new:

CEO (again)
Rumors that funding capital group is splitting up.
No more sales department (outside)
No marketing department
Lost some programmers...

Makes it tough to refine products/software and have new products.

Just putting in my 2 cents here about your situation and can understand what your going through. We get that same feeling from the owner that its cut and run. There controls are what they are simple stripped down cheap for simple tasks. Im not to familar with there APC access line but i deal with the scc line alot and most issues ive had have been manufacture issues. It really shows scince there really hasnt been any new develpoment in the R&D department. But it the end ive ended up ripping out distech/johnson/ALC ....ect......and installing circon beacuse the other control contractors really cant get it right. In the end it looks even better compared to others beacuse of quality installation and service. But it also hinders due to the complexity of certian jobs that circon really shows it weakness. Im sorry to hear your stance systint just understand your not alone in the way you feel about upper management there

Didn't Circon just get another new CEO?

Nikko

The controller is an ARM7 processor with the Echelon short stack handling the work through the Echelon chipset. (from my limited understanding)

The processor was locking up. (looping is the way I'd describe it... or grinding away on a single process)

Additionally, there was also some LNS issues as some message requests started hammering away like the response wasn't good enough.

The tenant info is in a SQL database, however LNS handles the transaction of data to download. Which, wasn't an issue as the controllers would crap out sitting static. Very aggravating. Then later they did some mods and the devices would reset themselves, however this was also irritating as it cycled the I/O....

They advertise behind the scenes as a software company so I'm thinking mostly everything was done in house. Although, there are less people now so maybe they are outsourcing...

crashing system

A few questions....define "crashing".Was it processor to processor comms or the processor(s) themselves locking up? Are the DPUs process image or parallel processors? Is the tennant DB written in PSQL, Transact-SQL or a proprietry language? Presently experiencing similar problems with a elevator access system, (Wiegand 33 bit readers) but I'm certain it's the physical layer at fault.
Mentioning the "loop" problem also seems to indicate dodgy coding in the OS, which would explain why no one wants to get involved and fix the problem (the company probably outsourced the coding in Chindia anyway).

Originally Posted by ddcfan

My suspicion is that you won't be hearing back from either Fry or Fezzic... It is apperant their ONE post was to vent emotion and not facts...dilute and not solidify...begrudge and not reason... There is only ONE answer to their identities...Circon...

Sysint, I personally believe you have the respect of many here, including those that disaggree with you at times... I'm convinced you did attempt as much as you could offer and got bit for it...unfortunatly...the situation was horribly handled at the top level...Unfortunatly for them...This kind of mentallity will trickle down...So, if this is their stance, what do you think the future will bring?? The CEO is there to set the stance for the future and he has...

If you have any connections with any original Tridium founders ask them how they came about... It was opportunity opened by the stance of a "certain manufacture" that drove them to innovation....Circon should take note...IMO

I think they are going down. They just lost another fairly decent SI.

I don't think they will make it and other companies are simply waiting to get the leftover pieces, of which there won't be many.

My guess is the CEO is shoring up short term cash and cutting expenses to lure a buyer.

If that doesn't pan out (it isn't), they are probably going to focus on re-doing or adding a plant controller of the new style everyone else is working on... Something with more auto-tune, auto-config, graphical programming with graphical capability built in and an Ethernet port on it. I doubt they are spending any R & D beyond that.

An update--- I had another Circon SI call me up on the problems they are having with the Access controller.... Similar. Have replacements already. They say this one is working. (the job is a SINGLE door!)

One thing he brought up that was completely outlandish to me was that he insisted these controllers were affected by the Nextel Phones they would use....

I thought "ridiculous" until I recalled that the staff at our installation insisted they could "walk in the room" and the controllers would drop off in front of their eyes... they carry Nextel. Now I almost have to wonder although I don't see how that could interfere with the controller.

Anyway, they had the same input/output problems we had.

My suspicion is that you won't be hearing back from either Fry or Fezzic... It is apperant their ONE post was to vent emotion and not facts...dilute and not solidify...begrudge and not reason... There is only ONE answer to their identities...Circon...

Sysint, I personally believe you have the respect of many here, including those that disaggree with you at times... I'm convinced you did attempt as much as you could offer and got bit for it...unfortunatly...the situation was horribly handled at the top level...Unfortunatly for them...This kind of mentallity will trickle down...So, if this is their stance, what do you think the future will bring?? The CEO is there to set the stance for the future and he has...

If you have any connections with any original Tridium founders ask them how they came about... It was opportunity opened by the stance of a "certain manufacture" that drove them to innovation....Circon should take note...IMO

Sorry to hear of your treatment Sys, as I said in my last, this is a huge departure from the way Circon was known for how they treated their customers. I guess it's the way of the future, assuming there is one for them.

Nikko

OK --- here's how it's looking..

Owner:
The company made a deal with the owner. NDA. I don't know the details, but the owner seems satisfied.

Integrator:
The company is allowing me to return the controllers for the projects ongoing that were installed but part of new construction. They pay for shipping back.

So, I'm out 423 hours of support, the system installation on retrofit and new construction, and costs associated with the new construction physical installation.

.....and of course there's no apparent problem anywhere. I'm not done yet.

Circon has done nothing further and replied with nothing further.

They had some discussion with the owner and verbally committed to covering some extraneous costs posting guards, etc... but since the documentation was passed on to them they have not replied. So now this issue stretches from roughly November 15, 2006 to date.

The owner is not giving up the removed controllers for return until they reply.

On the opposing positions by the one-posters... I've clearly left the door open to share some potential in this matter and have indicated as such. However, although I have some confidence in the technical people that remain on staff will fix any issues, facts are there IS issues and now your principal is denying there IS any issue and IS taking NO position.... which is most definitely A position - a poor one.

Additionally -- the replacement system is called Software House.

EDIT: "Both of you posted in defense of Circon (which is good to see) but both of you made your first posts to this forum in this thread and neither one of you offered any qualification for your position(s). Nor have you posted since."
--honestly, I hope you guys aren't Circon employees because this is what the Top Man over there is doing. And, it is troubling because in general my experience has been that Circon is fairly responsive to issues with existing product in comparison to other vendors.

Any update on this Sys?

FWIW - I've moved away from the APC (because of this thread) on a small job I bid and won . I like Circon's product, but I have a huge problem with the way you were treated on this issue.

Fry and Fezzic - Product issues with new technology are expected with this industry and more often than not issues sush as this are an opportunity for the manufacturer to gain a better understanding of how the product is going to be used in the field and how they can make the product more robust. A progressive manufacturer takes full advantage of a bad situation such as this to 1) learn what happened and 2) take care of their customers). I didn't see either of those occur here and in fact I saw the opposite (total denial and finger pointing was indicated)

Both of you posted in defense of Circon (which is good to see) but both of you made your first posts to this forum in this thread and neither one of you offered any qualification for your position(s). Nor have you posted since. I'm not asking you to divulge your true identity, but I am asking that you post with more information if you have it such that the entire scenario can be fairly represented. Circon generally has a good name, but this episode with Sysint reflects a HUGE change in how Circon normally deals with it's customers. Is this change the way of the future? Is this how Circon is going to market now? Is this what I can expect WHEN I have an installation issue with Circon product?

This is obviously a concern to me (and others) and I've made one order shift because of it. If you have another side to the story - please post it so decisions can be made.


Nikko

Originally Posted by Fry

Presumably you knew all that before you installed the product?

Another 1 poster. Come clean and I'll let you in on what I knew beforehand.

Originally Posted by Fry

Presumably you knew all that before you installed the product?

He's a control guy, he did everything the manufacturer asked hiim to do and more then they still left him swinging, don't try to make their case they have none, ever been left to swing on a job ? its not pretty.

Originally Posted by sysint

Not-so-good things about the APC's:

• However, when the Circon controller reset it would reset the outputs.
• The software reporting is disappointingly subpar. Too many clicks to navigate. No useful reports.
• Very poor at real-time monitoring if you want to watch doors or more importantly... track users.
• Terminal blocks were too small.
• You couldn't make use of the potential spare I/O.
• Lack of Global scheduling.
• No provision for multiple card formats/reader styles at the same time.
• Multiple resistance input values would have been nice for retrofit. (small point)
• I think they should have a dedicated I/O bus for elevator I/O. However, the product was new.

Presumably you knew all that before you installed the product?

Originally Posted by amigo

What did the customer end up using?.

Was it a standalone product that took the APC's place?

Are there any other product out there that has the same concept as APC? That is besides e-structures which in my experience is pretty clunky.

The customer ended up retrofitting to a Tyco product... the name escapes me but it's in the White House. It was standalone so the extra channels were discarded and it went IP with this stuff. It's more central type (conventional) configuration which didn't matter much in this situation as the controllers were all home-run into a panel anyway.

I know Novus has these door modules that reduce home-run wiring but Circon was on their own I think with their setup which was more refined than eStructures. (I have used this too)

I don't know about Apeche (whatever that Italian company is) or Ciac.

Not-so-good things about the APC's:

• However, when the Circon controller reset it would reset the outputs.
• The software reporting is disappointingly subpar. Too many clicks to navigate. No useful reports.
• Very poor at real-time monitoring if you want to watch doors or more importantly... track users.
• Terminal blocks were too small.
• You couldn't make use of the potential spare I/O.
• Lack of Global scheduling.
• No provision for multiple card formats/reader styles at the same time.
• Multiple resistance input values would have been nice for retrofit. (small point)
• I think they should have a dedicated I/O bus for elevator I/O. However, the product was new.

Good things:
On board power.
Flexible architecture.
SQL database (which eventually you should get decent reports out of..)
Lon product.

What did the customer end up using?.

Was it a standalone product that took the APC's place?

Are there any other product out there that has the same concept as APC? That is besides e-structures which in my experience is pretty clunky.

Originally Posted by PrestonPierce

Sys, I may have missed the answer to this but did someone analyze the network for errors, I mean how was the thing communicating ? Is there anything else going in the building other than HVAC or your controls that could be throwing this out of whack?

I would find it hard to believe that the manufacturer could leave you swinging on it, but I suppose it could happen, I will sure stay clear of them just for the fact that they have washed their hands from it without coming up with an answer or taking any responsibility for the failure, thats just lousy support and there is no excuse for it.

Some of the Circon staff were complaining about the use of Loytec products. That got me aggravated because the Loytec stuff is solid. Finally the Circon guy they sent onsite slayed that dragon. Good man that showed up. I like him.

I had the Loytec sniffer products on the system. (see earlier posts) The rest of the network devices would stay online except if the condition went to where all the APC's dropped off. Then anything could happen. Generally, however (still), all the other Circon products were just fine and operated normally. Bandwidth consumption was relatively low, and there wasn't an issue with packets failing to reach destination. (except- see next)

Early on with the sniffer we did find an external source interference on one channel. That problem was rectified quickly and documented. We had 9 channels.

Originally Posted by Fezzic

There are always two sides to every story. So far we are only hearing one. It's a real shame as I used to have dealings with the people on both sides of this issue and I strongly feel that Circon is definitely getting the dirty end of the stick here.

Feel free to be completely honest about who you are if you are making claims. Fair enough?

I've been a staunch Circon defender for years -- my record on this is clear. However, this is an issue and I've laid on the table what Circon has indicated they thought was the installation issue. The information is as I saw it and also per the written saved documentation I have from Circon staff.

I don't sit back and slam their whole operation. I'm being very specific. (EDIT)I've also stated I think they will get to the bottom of the situation and make corrections.

I don't go about this lightly, you can be certain of that.


EDIT: I need to also point out as soon as the APC's were out of the network everything was OK. No problems whatsoever.