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Originally Posted by darctangent

Just picked up a job last night where The Super seal was installed with a new condensing unit 3 years ago.

The compressor is roto-locked. No obvious indicators for failure.


Client has been advised of the possible complications, but wants to replace the compressor.

Any ideas about cleaning this crap out of the system?




PS- Installing contractor appears to have gone out of business during the hottest summer I can remember

Hello,

Sorry for missing your question, in the future for a quick response, please call us directly @ 1-866-548-3644.
When servicing a unit with our sealant we recommend using standard clean up practices. As you recover the refrigerant you also remove the sealant.

Let's discuss the locked rotor:


The compressor in your case was rotor locked and not a burnout. Just treat it like you would any other unit you would come across. Regardless of the sealant being used or not, the locked rotor could be an indication of low oil return due to partial blockage, improper sized piping or pipe runs and arrangement. It could also just be a premature mechanical failure due to bearing/ bushing wear. In any case it would be good work practice to open up the expansion devise and check for blockage.

Originally Posted by mikep

I delayed responding to your post to have a chemist friend review your product MSDS and your explanation of how the Superseal works. Based on the ingredients listed in your MSDS, the reaction with water does not and cannot initiate a polymerization reaction as you allege. Water reacts with your silicone compounds to release methanol and other alcohols. The only way your ingredients can be polymerized is with an acid and pre-polymerized silicone base. Your ingredients are classified as adhesion accelerators, and are used in silicone adhesives preparations that cure with acetic acid such as with RTV silicone's. The accelerators in your product are used in silicone adhesives because they are alcohol donors. The alcohols evaporate off with the acid to cure the RTV silicone base faster.
My chemist friend does not have any faith in your science and I will spare you his off color comments. One thing he did mention was that he would not be concerned with combining water with your ingredients such as with a wet system. He would be more concerned with any acid in the system which would cause your ingredients solidify. This may explain why we are running into locked compressors and plug expansion devices.

Here at Cliplight we want to take this time to give you a special thank you, added with congratulations! for putting in some hard fact digging to reveal the truth. Too many companies today are making all sorts of amazing claims without providing the true science.
We are the original sealant company for the HVACR industry and as leaders in the chemical tool industry we actively offer science lectures here in North America and overseas speaking at training facilities and colleges. We do not limit our lecture material to just our chemical tools but open our research and development laboratory findings to all aspects of the HVACR service and repair industry. Our business motive is to grow new products by sharing our knowledge, opening it up to discussion and debate and responding intelligently and responsibly. Because of this ongoing dialogue over the past ten years with our customers we were able to develop our new Advanced refrigerant sealant product line.

The answers we provided you are brief and if you would like more details we would invite you to call us in person.

Customer - I delayed responding to your post to have a chemist friend review your
product MSDS and your explanation of how the Superseal works. Based on the
ingredients listed in your MSDS, the reaction with water does not and cannot
initiate a polymerization reaction as you allege.

Cliplight- MSDS only list those components that are hazardous which means that those deemed non hazardous are not mentioned. A simple experiment can be conducted to demonstrate that the sealant will polymerize when coming in contact with the grains of water present in the air. Using a clear piece of glass or a microscope slide, add a single drop of the the sealant composition to it and let it remain there for an hour. After an hour has passed by, wipe off the excess and you will see a clear film of sealant which has polymerized. This sealing action takes place at a much higher rate when it is carried with the oil and refrigerant as it exits the throat of the leak. This action triggers the dew point causing the air to drop out its moisture content accelerating the sealants ability to seal the leak.

Customer- Water reacts with your silicone compounds to release methanol and other
alcohols.

Cliplight- Yes, but only the methoxy silanes produce methanol.

Customer- The only way your ingredients can be polymerized is with an acid and
pre-polymerized silicone base.

Cliplight- Not entirely correct, acids will accelerate the rate of reaction but reaction can also occur when only in the presence of water. This can be easily demonstrated using the table experiment mentioned earlier.


Customer- Your ingredients are classified as adhesion accelerators, and are used in
silicone adhesives preparations that cure with acetic acid such as with RTV
silicone's. The accelerators in your product are used in silicone adhesives
because they are alcohol donors. The alcohols evaporate off with the acid to
cure the RTV silicone base faster.

Cliplight- Your correct, but that is a completely different area of technology.

Customer- My chemist friend does not have any faith in your science and I will spare you his off color comments.

Cliplight- In our case you do not require faith, we have over ten years of sealing systems world wide from automotive manufactures, medical industries, commercial and hospitality industries. You can check these out on our web site.

Customer- One thing he did mention was that he would not be concerned with combining
water with your ingredients such as with a wet system.

Customer- He would be more concerned with any acid in the system which would cause
your ingredients solidify.

Cliplight- With or without our sealants, acids are a critical concern and should be removed from a system regardless. When we are only dealing with moisture, our sealants are equipped with a hydrolytic component to eliminate moisture which will help reduce acid formation while enabling the sealant to safely arrive at its intended destination and react to the moisture formed at the leak site instead of moisture internally present.

Originally Posted by yunggun

Was not the safety relief on the bottom of the can it was the complete top of the can. Both bottles were sent to your company we received new ones. Both cans were installed by the step by step directions on the product. Personally watched the installation both times and the explosion both times. Installed properly by your directions.

To begin with, we should first address the elephant in the room; the cans never exploded or experienced any deformation. (as shown in Figure 1)

What is true however, both cans returned to us had lids that came off during the installation process. Both can lids were clearly not crimped on during the manufacturing process, as a result the lids easily pop off, with first contact of low pressure. There is an O-ring which seals the lid to the can, but without the crimping process it only takes a slight pressure over atmospheric to pop the top off. (as shown in Figure 2) This will explain why the lid came off, while the safety release valve (as shown in Figure 3) stayed intact, which only releases if the can is pressured beyond 420 psi.

In 9 years of manufacturing our products, in vacuumed packed cans, we have only experienced 3 cans with this issue, it is unfortunate that 2 of the 3 were with your friend.
We have documented the un-crimped can lids and reviewed with our quality control inspection in an effort to reduce even further, this rare occurrence.
We place great importance on safety for our customer. For this reason our cans have a built-in safety relief valve which prevents the can from ever reaching dangerous conditions. In short the can will never explode.

The technician who experienced the failure did confirm with us, that the cans did not explode. We thanked him for sending us the cans, and in return promptly provided him with replacement product.

Best regards,
Attachment 302361Attachment 302371Attachment 302381

Was not the safety relief on the bottom of the can it was the complete top of the can. Both bottles were sent to your company we received new ones. Both cans were installed by the step by step directions on the product. Personally watched the installation both times and the explosion both times. Installed properly by your directions.

Prior smaller company I worked for only had three service techs me being one and one of them used these seals kits all the time but did not follow the manufactures instructions of using the moisture eliminator product and taking out the driers etc. He just put it in every leaking system he came accross. He quit and next season a lot of compressor he had put that stuff into locked up and needed to be changed out.

I delayed responding to your post to have a chemist friend review your product MSDS and your explanation of how the Superseal works. Based on the ingredients listed in your MSDS, the reaction with water does not and cannot initiate a polymerization reaction as you allege. Water reacts with your silicone compounds to release methanol and other alcohols. The only way your ingredients can be polymerized is with an acid and pre-polymerized silicone base. Your ingredients are classified as adhesion accelerators, and are used in silicone adhesives preparations that cure with acetic acid such as with RTV silicone's. The accelerators in your product are used in silicone adhesives because they are alcohol donors. The alcohols evaporate off with the acid to cure the RTV silicone base faster.
My chemist friend does not have any faith in your science and I will spare you his off color comments. One thing he did mention was that he would not be concerned with combining water with your ingredients such as with a wet system. He would be more concerned with any acid in the system which would cause your ingredients solidify. This may explain why we are running into locked compressors and plug expansion devices.

Originally Posted by yunggun

I have personal seen 2 cans of clip light sealent explode. Following there instructions word for word. The tech it exploded on was just fine after getting checked at hospital. The company said they hadent had the problem before. But you will never see that crap in my hand. 2 cans 2 seperate occasions.

Could you please elaborate on this? Our cans have a safety relief on the bottom of the can, this will only open if pressurized over 420psi. This is a feature that is on all our sealant cans. Could this have been another product? Please Call 866-548-3644 and speak with Jesse Homenuik Research & Development Assistant so we can properly follow up on this situation.

Originally Posted by eurocool

The MSDS for SUPERSEAL HVACR on their website lists "Incompatibilities & Conditions to Avoid: Reacts with water or moisture to form methanol."

Ermmmm. So, it works by producing a condition that is to be avoided? Fishy fishy

You’re exactly right with the analogy. Fish need water and so does our sealant. I like the way you think. We need more techs like you asking the hard questions so that manufactures will have to give account and prove that their products really do as they say they do. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss them.

Background history:

Methanol, ethanol and alcohol have been used for many years to prevent water in refrigeration systems from forming ice crystals at expansion devises. It works but unfortunately the drawback is that you still have water, water that may not freeze but will still react with oil and refrigerants and form acids.
Bottom line is methanol is flammable along with the others and at Cliplight we like to put all the necessary details in our MSDS so that the handler (customer) can take all the precautions necessary to store, handle and apply the product safely. We put everything you need to know, complete disclosure to keep the customer safe.

Here's the scenario. If you were to have a pallet of our product and a collision occurred during shipping where every can on the pallet split open and there was a source of ignition close by, you could potentially produce a flammable condition.
Note: all Cliplight cans are vacuum packed and contain no propellants such as propane, isobutane or butane. The cans are steel walled and because they are in a vacuum the probability of the can rupturing on impact is very low compared to propane, isobutane or butane propellant cans.

Our refrigerant sealants polymerize on contact with water. The ideal situation is to have the sealant contact with moisture in the air and not from the systems internal moisture. For that reason our new Advanced sealant has a hydrolytic chemical composition added to the sealant which can remove up to 60 drops of water from a single application regardless of the size of the unit. This addition helps to remove internal moisture conditions allowing the sealant to reach its target destination and react to the moisture being deposited at the leak site.

My name is Paul Appler and I am the developer of this product. I would like to invite you to call me so we can discuss this in much greater detail then an email could ever possibly deliver.

Originally Posted by mikep

According to your own explanation the sealant reacts with the condensate formed around the exit point of the refrigerant leak stream. This means a doughnut of sealant will form around the leak perimeter on the outside of the tubing not on the inside of the cavity as your video shows. Just exactly how does moisture get way down into the leak cavity when you have an opposing positive pressure refrigerant jet or stream. There is no way air or moisture can enter a leak unless the leak stops and starts sucking air.
We can see the spray pattern of a refrigerant leak when we use dye so we should also see a spray pattern of sealant on surrounding surfaces but you do not talk about that. You also claim that the sealant bonds to metal coated with oil. Google cannot find an adhesive or sealant that can do that. When you jump in the shark tank prepare to lose a chunk of flesh.

Thank you for your comments.

At Cliplight we use science as a tool to expose myths and shed light on the truth. A shark tank is completely harmless for a diver with the proper equipment and knowledge. We fearlessly swim with sharks all the time and we are still here after 36 years. Are you sure that is our video or a competitor? I know some of our competitors use animation and show it the way you are describing.

If that's the case, your analogy makes perfect sense.
The only Cliplight sealant video that we have, is a magnified live experiment involving actual refrigerant, oil and a low pressure condition utilizing a measured engineered leak. If this is the one you are referring to, you are only witnessing the excess polymerization flowing out from the exit and spilling over the surface of the pipe. Behind this action the sealant is attaching itself to the interior of the throat (the conduit for the refrigerant leak) nearest to the exterior edge. When we study the point of leakage at the edge of the throats exit we see that moisture droplets are formed due to the effect of refrigerant expansion. Refrigerant exiting creates a throttling effect. The gas expands rapidly in atmospheric air, lowering the atmospheric dew point and letting go of its moisture content. Although this action produces droplets of water which are formed and quickly carried away with refrigerant the process is continually occurring allowing a wetted surface for the sealant to react to. Oil does not have time to collect at the edge as it is continually scrubbed away being miscible with the refrigerant. Once the oil leaves the throat with the expanding gas it will drop out of the flow path because of its heavier mass weight. The polymerization process continues building upon each other as it closes the exit area similar to a camera shutter. Along with this root action there is carryover of sealant which will form a raised mound similar to a volcano. When the process is complete you can actually sand the exterior and not disturb the seal. Once the micro leak has been repaired it can withstand up to a pressure of 850 psig +.

Originally Posted by bjs619

Has anyone used this product in a multi-V system (LG or Mitsubishi city multi)? Does/Could it gum up these systems?

I wouldn't risk it. Those systems are full of cap tubes, strainers and LEVs. That could turn into disaster.

I decided to try out leak freeze on an old unicorn system with a leaking evap coil. We will find out if it works. It just seemed a better choice since is doesn't react to moisture, air, and polymers. I'm not keen on using it but if its an old system that a custom7er just wants to squeeze a little more life out of it I'm willing to try it but i let them know the risks.

Has anyone used this product in a multi-V system (LG or Mitsubishi city multi)? Does/Could it gum up these systems?

Originally Posted by itsiceman

Whats the problem? Don't they sell a can of clean the **** out too

QFE
Haven't had the pleasure. That's a tough one. Use the customer's reclaimer and vacuum pump

Originally Posted by darctangent

Any ideas about cleaning this crap out of the system?

Whats the problem? Don't they sell a can of clean the **** out too

Just picked up a job last night where The Super seal was installed with a new condensing unit 3 years ago.

The compressor is roto-locked. No obvious indicators for failure.


Client has been advised of the possible complications, but wants to replace the compressor.

Any ideas about cleaning this crap out of the system?




PS- Installing contractor appears to have gone out of business during the hottest summer I can remember

Originally Posted by yunggun

I have personal seen 2 cans of clip light sealent explode. Following there instructions word for word. The tech it exploded on was just fine after getting checked at hospital. The company said they hadent had the problem before. But you will never see that crap in my hand. 2 cans 2 seperate occasions.

The can or the hose attachment?

I have personal seen 2 cans of clip light sealent explode. Following there instructions word for word. The tech it exploded on was just fine after getting checked at hospital. The company said they hadent had the problem before. But you will never see that crap in my hand. 2 cans 2 seperate occasions.

Originally Posted by Cliplight Mfg

The light used was a Blue 450nm wavelength light that was necessary to view the sealing process. This was to overcome the quality of the camera used, this had no affect on the polymerization of our sealant.

I didn't have a problem seeing anything when the light was off

The MSDS for SUPERSEAL HVACR on their website lists "Incompatibilities & Conditions to Avoid: Reacts with water or moisture to form methanol."

Ermmmm. So, it works by producing a condition that is to be avoided? Fishy fishy

Originally Posted by Cliplight Mfg

As the refrigerant exits, it begins to lower the ambient air temperature down to the dew point where micro droplets of water are deposited around the perimeter of the leak area. When the sealant comes in contact with the droplets of water it begins to form a permanent low tensile crystalline structure, which creates a barrier preventing the refrigerant from escaping. Our sealant will also attach to all types of metals used in AC/R field, an oily surface will not diminish its effectiveness.

According to your own explanation the sealant reacts with the condensate formed around the exit point of the refrigerant leak stream. This means a doughnut of sealant will form around the leak perimeter on the outside of the tubing not on the inside of the cavity as your video shows. Just exactly how does moisture get way down into the leak cavity when you have an opposing positive pressure refrigerant jet or stream. There is no way air or moisture can enter a leak unless the leak stops and starts sucking air.
We can see the spray pattern of a refrigerant leak when we use dye so we should also see a spray pattern of sealant on surrounding surfaces but you do not talk about that. You also claim that the sealant bonds to metal coated with oil. Google cannot find an adhesive or sealant that can do that. When you jump in the shark tank prepare to lose a chunk of flesh.