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flange is a former employee for eighteen years prior to going into business. He has seen both sides of the fence, and still holds his union card (full disclosure). He has found that treating his employees with respect makes it easy to flourish and make gobs of money. They dont do so bad either.

i think he is a president?

Originally Posted by jnsrose

I prove myself everyday. I also try to learn something everyday. As an employee there is nobody harder on myself then me. I also strive to improve those around me. Teaching what I know and learning what you have to offer. I been in this business a few years. I have had some days where I shined and was ready to run in an ask for a raise. Of course I had those days where I didn't look so good and was ready to run and hide. All in all I am extremely lucky to have worked for two excellent companies. Hell in this economy I am lucky to even be working at all. I love this site. All though the number of post may not show it I have been a member for quite some years. I also notice the number of owners (posting) on this site has gone up. I think that is a good thing it gives you perspectives from both sides. Maybe they are tired of getting bashed or put in a circle with all the bad ones.

Flange For President!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I prove myself everyday. I also try to learn something everyday. As an employee there is nobody harder on myself then me. I also strive to improve those around me. Teaching what I know and learning what you have to offer. I been in this business a few years. I have had some days where I shined and was ready to run in an ask for a raise. Of course I had those days where I didn't look so good and was ready to run and hide. All in all I am extremely lucky to have worked for two excellent companies. Hell in this economy I am lucky to even be working at all. I love this site. All though the number of post may not show it I have been a member for quite some years. I also notice the number of owners (posting) on this site has gone up. I think that is a good thing it gives you perspectives from both sides. Maybe they are tired of getting bashed or put in a circle with all the bad ones.

Flange For President!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Most owners look to several different factors to determine if a new hire is a valued asset, or just another body. A hard fast rule as to number of days isnt really a good barometer. It can often be enough to detemrine that you dont want to keep a tech, but in many cases, not nrearly enough time to determine if he is a long term fit to the organization.

Recently i hired a man with over thirty years of experience in heavy commercial work. I knew him for ten years prior, but he never worked for me. He came to us with a stellar reputation, solid work history, and a general great reputation. It took him over three months to get comfortable. There were times when the guys came to me one on one, and expressed exactly this. "He has x reputation, but we just havent seen him step up".

I was keenly aware of what he was doing, both from the aspect of fitting nto my business on a tech to tech level, and also on the customer level. I cautioned my guys to give him a chance, and let him step up. One day, I went to discuss this ith him in a generic way. I told him that we hired a journeyman, and the guys were wondering when he was going to open up a little and shine like they knew he could. As it turned out, he was just trying to keep a low profile, being in some financial difficulty, he wanted to keep his job. He didnt want to upset anyone.
In this case, a thirty day rule would have found him unemployed, but I knew he was different than he was being perceived. I gave him the chance to shine, and he is now doing just that.

Guys, there are soooooo many things you, as employees dont know. I can tell you for a fact that if there is an issue with any client, we know about it. We get the calls. If there is an issue at a supply house, we most likely know about it. If you cut someone off, we likely know about it. If a customer feels you devalued a service, we definately know about it. We as owners get the calls. This can be a client who thinks you showing up fifteen minutes late is a problem, or the one who thinks you are leering at women in the workplace. Many places have a three second rule, especially for workers. If you break it by looking at a woman, we hear about it. Sometimes you hear about it too, other times, we know the client is being too sensitive and bury it. All of these things, and more come into play when making decisions, and at the end of the day we make decisions that are for the good of the business as a whole. We understand that we are there to provide a good workplace for our men and women. We understand what it akes to do that. Just because we dont communicate every little detail to you, doesnt mean a thing.

We expect youto go to work each day, repreent yourself as the man you are, act like an invited guest in the home or business of the client, and make both of us money. If you can manage ot do that on a regular basis withno screwups, you will be fairly compensated.

Originally Posted by Dad

But... all three categories have aholes in them too.

HA

I wouldn't argue that either.

I have seen my share of the workers that were lazy and useless as a pet coon. Difference is though, those knot heads don't affect my lifestyle like the boss or owner does.

But... all three categories have aholes in them too.

HA

Good post Dad. It is appreciated.

I don't find anything to disagree with.

Originally Posted by freemind

I listen just fine. Have you thought that perhaps it isn't ME that has a problem with listening? I have acknowledged when I agree with business owners. I belive the problem IS, many of the owners don't like my responce.

Do you suppose that the main problem some people have with me is I ask questions and I respond with something other than just drool and a +1? In reality, bosses don't like guys that question or have an opposing opinion. They want a worker that does what they are told and nothing more. "Just shut up and DO it!". They want a worker that never seeks to draw any more wages than what the boss "feels" like paying. They want blind loyalty. Afterall, in the scheme of things, workers ARE a cash cow to a company. And they are quickly discarded when an employer CAN'T use them as a cash cow.

What I see is 'some' techs have post here in the past that their Boss sucks. I also see very few Boss's that post here say their tech or tech suck.

What I also see is a Boss posting to what he feels is a deserving response and 'some' techs taking it like a slap in the face. Neither a Boss or a tech is a commodity to be crapped on (taken lightly), everyone has a job to do.

What I also see is a disconnect between what techs understand about a business and what a Boss knows about running a business.

Here is the bottom line as I see it, yes, I've owned my business for just over 25 years and was a ball busting tech for years before that...

A company is where you work and get paid. The company can only pay so much for the work as they can only charge so much for the work being done. The economy hits we owners hard. The money must come from somewhere so we cut our overhead to the bone so everyone gets paid and bills are paid.

A boss must make the above decisions and it's hard to cut back on essentials. Essentials are also raises and benefits. Others are new trucks, repair of others, vacations and holiday pay, the office light bill. Let's not forget about other utilities they use when you are in the field and the list goes on.

A tech is expected to do his job to the best of his abilities while employed. This goes for a service company or McDonalds. This is the way it is. Doesn't matter how much you get paid for it, it is a way of the working environment. Such as... I get a salary. When times are tight I don't' get paid and understand I must meet payroll. If I didn't get paid for last week does it mean that I don't show up next week?

If an employee gets paid a reasonable wage, not going to get into what the term reasonable is as we are all different, then he is expected to do his duties to the best of his abilities. Raises are hard to come by, yes? So, the tech must make due with what he is taking home just like we all do as there is no pot-o-gold at the end of any rainbow.

Now if you can agree the above is a set policy manner and all in their prespective fields of work are equal to everyone else in the same group then you set a base line of the majority of service companies around the globe.

The baseline is what one may say.. the "given" part of a working society.

So, let's say the Boss has a bad day or a bad year or heck, decade... OK, we understand it's not about yesterday it all about what you do for me now. Same goes for a tech. Do you jump ship? Only the tech or Boss in question can answer that.

When a new person is hired will the Boss be reasonable with his pocketbook? This wasn't just born out of the blue yesterday. This question is ages old. Can you get paid what you are worth? The answer is... it depends on the economy and how much the market will bear, how well the tech is adaptive to his new environment and is there enough money in the budget to hold that new tech's salary and overhead for 30 to 60 days until he starts paying for himself.

There's a ton more to being a Tech, a Boss and a Owner. But, if everyone is allowed to do his perspective part in the world I, for one, would think this field would be much easier to work in.

Am I focusing on your posting mentality, yes, maybe some. But seems there is separation that really shouldn't be there if you can communicate with the other groups that make the world go around if you get my drift.

Originally Posted by freemind

WHEN did I complain about this site? Never once, Dad. I don't belive I have even hinted that this was NOT a good place.

Was for Supertek, post 42

Originally Posted by Dad

You've gotten your responses. The issue is you refuse to listen and acknowledge them for yourself.

All I see is a few disgruntled techs not satisfied with their job and want to make everyone else miserable too.

If you don't like where you work, change.
If you don't like the answer given to you, ignore it.
If you ask it again and get the same answer, different version, then blaming others isn't the answer.
If you can't blame anyone else then start your own business.

This is still a great site. There are far more techs here than owners.

WHEN did I complain about this site? Never once, Dad. I don't belive I have even hinted that this was NOT a good place.

I listen just fine. Have you thought that perhaps it isn't ME that has a problem with listening? I have acknowledged when I agree with business owners. I belive the problem IS, many of the owners don't like my responce.

Do you suppose that the main problem some people have with me is I ask questions and I respond with something other than just drool and a +1? In reality, bosses don't like guys that question or have an opposing opinion. They want a worker that does what they are told and nothing more. "Just shut up and DO it!". They want a worker that never seeks to draw any more wages than what the boss "feels" like paying. They want blind loyalty. Afterall, in the scheme of things, workers ARE a cash cow to a company. And they are quickly discarded when an employer CAN'T use them as a cash cow.

Originally Posted by freemind

You're right. I didn't figure I would really get much useful feedback. Hoped I would, but that isn't what happened.

Don't the responses, really say something?

You've gotten your responses. The issue is you refuse to listen and acknowledge them for yourself.

All I see is a few disgruntled techs not satisfied with their job and want to make everyone else miserable too.

If you don't like where you work, change.
If you don't like the answer given to you, ignore it.
If you ask it again and get the same answer, different version, then blaming others isn't the answer.
If you can't blame anyone else then start your own business.

This is still a great site. There are far more techs here than owners.

Originally Posted by freemind

You're right. I didn't figure I would really get much useful feedback. Hoped I would, but that isn't what happened.

Don't the responses, really say something?

Like here? http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=1026141



:crickets chirping:

Originally Posted by neophytes serendipity

I've noticed not too many owners providing useful feedback on this one...

You're right. I didn't figure I would really get much useful feedback. Hoped I would, but that isn't what happened.

Don't the responses, really say something?

Originally Posted by supertek65

this used to be a pretty good site!

mostly techs!

now that the economy is bad we are out numbered by all the owners that dont have anything to do!

I have a hard enough time running myself.

Based upon what I have seen as a union foreman, finding quality employees may be just about impossible.

"Proving yourself" can mean many things.

I have worked closely with some that will still try to skimp on something if given the opportunity. Don't know why or understand.

Others cannot follow instructions... or, do not listen. Or, just do it their way regardless of any reason why it should be done differently.

Then there really is a union entitlement mentality. Not all have it, but some certainly do.

I would value honesty and integrity over almost anything else. I think the rest of it comes with those two things.

My for what it is worth.

this used to be a pretty good site!

mostly techs!

now that the economy is bad we are out numbered by all the owners that dont have anything to do!

Originally Posted by neophytes serendipity

I've noticed not too many owners providing useful feedback on this one...

Originally Posted by freemind

You hear employers say, you must prove yourself. I agee with the statement on it's face.

However, HOW MUCH is required to satisfy you? Does a guy need to install 4, 10, or 1000 furnaces? Does a guy need to lay 100 miles of ductwork BEFORE you think he has proved himself?

I don't mean to sound of the jerk. I am just looking for some insight. Are your expectations decent, or are they pie in the sky?

I've noticed not too many owners providing useful feedback on this one...

Originally Posted by klove

I can tell you from having been on both sides of the fence that this statement is from nothing other than how you want to see things, and made as a general observation about any company - union or not - is nothing but a bald-faced lie. We do not work on commission at all because I feel that it fosters a culture of dishonesty for some folks, so I just won't do it, period. And whether we're union or non-union doesn't make a dimes worth of difference in that respect. Want to get fired in a hurry? Come to work for us and let me find out that you sold a customer something they didn't need simply for the sake of making money. There are companies out there that will do just that, but I resent the fact that you would roll everyone other than those really honest, never-do-anything-unethical union companies into the same group. The fact that you would do that shows the futility of a discussion of this sort.

maybe things are different down there, been on both sides too and my experience is exactly what I stated on previous post.
you dont know me, you have no idea where I work, you know nothing about me.
why dont you state your facts instead of attacking mine?

Originally Posted by klove

Freemind: This is how not to approach the situation. Here's why: Let's say that you and I had the job interview(s) and we came to an agreement that you would go to work and I would pay you to do so. If things worked out to everyones satisfaction, I would increase your pay after one month from $3.00/hour to $3.10/hour and you agreed that the starting wage and increase was fair and good, but then you "made it clear" that you expected me to live up to what I said I would do. In other words, for no reason at all, you basically told me that you wouldn't tolerate it if I was a liar. At that point, the thing that would have been not only clear to this gentleman, but painfully obvious, was the location of the door.

This quote and it's content is the EXACT reason that John Markl started the thread that he started originally about "What do you bring to the table?". If one wants to be shown respect, then one has to have respect. This quote shows no respect at all towards the prospective employer. It does, however, convey the typical "It's all about me" attitude that many folks carry with them into job interviews. At least that's what they say on here and that's what they think, obviously. I've conducted lots of interviews and never had anyone say anything of that sort to my face, but it's gotten back through the grapevine that they told everyone else they said something of the sort, probably to try and make themselves look like they're in control. Someone that would actually say something like this in an interview isn't worthy to work for a company with my family's name on it. How should I think he'd treat my customers if he don't think any more than that of me? Remember, this is a two way street.

Typical boss talk.... I am screwing you blah blah balh.

If you cannot put on paper that I would receive the promised raise within one month and satisfactorily "proving" myself I would find my own way to the door. You wouldn't need to worry about hiring me, you competition would.

I have seen way too many employers promise that big raise after a "proving" period, problem is that the proving period often times turns into months where you end up busting your ass while the boss rakes in the profits of your hard work.

Everything gets put on paper when I get hired, if you don't, see ya later. Plenty of HVAC contractors out there.

Originally Posted by freemind

You are the typical guy I have worked for ALL my life. There is no discussion about anything. You are ALWAYS right, in your own mind. You are the type to quickly chew butt for someone else's mistakes. Yet come up with the excuses when YOU screw up.

Look, in today's modern world of electronic wonders, you have NO EXCUSE to "forget" raises and employee reviews. Hey, even a CALENDAR works still, right? It boils down to simply this: IF you are late with reviews and raises, you ARE screwing the employee.

As far as forgetting stuff myself, no, I don't. When the bass man tells me he wants this or that done, I write it down on a sticky note. That note hangs in the upper left corner of my truck window. The excuse "I forgot" is lame and bosses typically don't really accept it as an excuse. They want RESULTS, not excuses. I can live with that. Wish THEY too lived by those rules.

I don't know what your post's purpose serves, other than your weak attempt to belittle me. Do you have little man sydrome or something?

Go back to the first part of this thread and read my first post in answer to your original question. That's discussion. Everything else that you've come up with in this thread, as in others, is nothing but belly-aching drivel, which is why you are so obviously unhappy and will always be the underdog in your own mind. As I said - go start your own and lets see how you do things since you apparently know all the answers. That's where the proof will be, and that goes for anyone else with the same attitude that you have.

As far as making a mistake and forgetting something - there's only two kinds of people in the world, those that make mistakes and liars. If you want to tell me that you never forget anything, then you're far to good a man to be talking to the lowly likes of me.

If I wanted to belittle you, I can assure you that it wouldn't be a weak attempt. You've handed out too much ammunition for that to happen. And no, the last thing I have is little mans syndrome (talk about a weak attempt to shift focus)......

Originally Posted by valdelocc

Non-union commercial companies place a great deal of pressure on their employees to sell something or find something wrong in every PM even if the equipment was new,.

I can tell you from having been on both sides of the fence that this statement is from nothing other than how you want to see things, and made as a general observation about any company - union or not - is nothing but a bald-faced lie. We do not work on commission at all because I feel that it fosters a culture of dishonesty for some folks, so I just won't do it, period. And whether we're union or non-union doesn't make a dimes worth of difference in that respect. Want to get fired in a hurry? Come to work for us and let me find out that you sold a customer something they didn't need simply for the sake of making money. There are companies out there that will do just that, but I resent the fact that you would roll everyone other than those really honest, never-do-anything-unethical union companies into the same group. The fact that you would do that shows the futility of a discussion of this sort.