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No, I'm getting batty from the long hours. Going to sleep now, never mind me...

Hell. With on site techs being phased out I should start retraining.
Seriously tho, me and 8 other guys provide constant maintenance to 600k square feet. Working 6-11, we find plenty to do, and quite often it's central plant work. Just because it's new doesn't mean it won't break.
The newest section is from 2012 and has DX RTU's with hot water heat, the older part, 1978, is either chilled water and hot water or WSHP depending on where you are. For what it's worth, the RTU'S have terrible modulation and I would prefer water. Also, being in Iowa our cold temp is -5F, tho two years ago we saw -28.

cost of install , and adding ac has taken steam pretty much out of residential market large facilities where moving heat many floors and not having vent piping to deal with, a lot of reasons for steam are best fit for building use and design if you spill some steam ..you might have to mop it... spill some flue gas people die. so it makes sense that hospitals favor steam there boilers are often remote located for that and noise /safety issues .

OPW

Did you really want to bring this one back to life?

To make things worse, my European customers call water heater "boilers".

Originally Posted by SolarMike

Wow, I am surprised to see this thread go on so long, without a lot of movement from the first few pages. Anyway, while the regs can be complicated the idea is simple......A boiler runs at a specific max pressure, has safeties to ensure that it does and is designed for "closed loop circulation", or very little new water introduced to it. This makes the use of cast iron or steel rads possible.

A water heater CAN be the same as a boiler in construction, such as the Teledyne Laars commercial water heaters and boilers, or RBI or any number of mid efficiency copper fin boilers that still are working in many apartment buildings. The difference with these water heaters is that they are meant to have oxygenated water flow through them on the way to the tap. They are typically rated for domestic water pressures, do not have some of the safeties that boilers have (low water cut off, for example) which means that typically just a high limit switch and a flow switch is necessary.

The heat exchanger may be exactly the same one in the water heating boiler as in the space heating boiler but the jacket, gas valve, venting, operating conditions may be different. It depends on what you want to accomplish.

And typically sport a one year warranty.

A Boiler is a closed vessel in which water or other fluid is heated. Boilers are classified by their pressure capacity, their design type and by their use. Low pressure boiler does not require an operator, but high pressure boilers require an operator during operations. Most boiler problems don't occur suddenly. They develop slowly over a long period of time. The boiler operator is responsible for operating and maintaining the boiler in a safe and efficient manner through the use of sound engineering practices and manufacturer’s specified maintenance procedures. Most boiler accidents are caused by operator error and poor maintenance.

You can't teach someone who knows everything.................anything!

well said Gib..... Maintenance failed lives lost....

Wow, I am surprised to see this thread go on so long, without a lot of movement from the first few pages. Anyway, while the regs can be complicated the idea is simple......A boiler runs at a specific max pressure, has safeties to ensure that it does and is designed for "closed loop circulation", or very little new water introduced to it. This makes the use of cast iron or steel rads possible.

A water heater CAN be the same as a boiler in construction, such as the Teledyne Laars commercial water heaters and boilers, or RBI or any number of mid efficiency copper fin boilers that still are working in many apartment buildings. The difference with these water heaters is that they are meant to have oxygenated water flow through them on the way to the tap. They are typically rated for domestic water pressures, do not have some of the safeties that boilers have (low water cut off, for example) which means that typically just a high limit switch and a flow switch is necessary.

The heat exchanger may be exactly the same one in the water heating boiler as in the space heating boiler but the jacket, gas valve, venting, operating conditions may be different. It depends on what you want to accomplish.

Originally Posted by meplumber

The difference in a "water heater" and a hydronic "boiler" is in the ASME stamp. Hydronic boilers have a H Stamp. Water heaters have an HLW stamp. Large Power Steam boilers have an S stamp. See attached. Boiler licenses vary by jurisdiction. In the state of Maine, Steam boilers under 15 PSI are required to have an operator with a Low Pressure Operators License in Commercial and Institutional Buildings. Steam Boilers over 15 PSI in those settings are required to have an appropriately license Engineer and an Operator licensed as a High Pressure Boiler Operator. There is also a threshold for 24/7 monitoring. Meaning that a Licensed Operator is required onsite 24/7. I do not know off the top of my head what that threshold is.

See link below for rating differences between vessel styles. Also, a water heater, makes Domestic Potable hot water. Hydronic and Steam boilers make heat for usage in heating (sometimes both space heating and domestic potable water heating).

http://www.onetb.com/asme_code.htm

Thank you very much, for the information!

The difference in a "water heater" and a hydronic "boiler" is in the ASME stamp. Hydronic boilers have a H Stamp. Water heaters have an HLW stamp. Large Power Steam boilers have an S stamp. See attached. Boiler licenses vary by jurisdiction. In the state of Maine, Steam boilers under 15 PSI are required to have an operator with a Low Pressure Operators License in Commercial and Institutional Buildings. Steam Boilers over 15 PSI in those settings are required to have an appropriately license Engineer and an Operator licensed as a High Pressure Boiler Operator. There is also a threshold for 24/7 monitoring. Meaning that a Licensed Operator is required onsite 24/7. I do not know off the top of my head what that threshold is.

See link below for rating differences between vessel styles. Also, a water heater, makes Domestic Potable hot water. Hydronic and Steam boilers make heat for usage in heating (sometimes both space heating and domestic potable water heating).

http://www.onetb.com/asme_code.htm

Originally Posted by MHall

User,Cagey57;

If you read my question, you will see that it is valid and worthy of response. Any replies are greatly appreciated

I have to renig !

The reference to "hot water heat" typically refers to "Hydronic" hot water heat. Your inference to "water heater' has to be taken in the context of "Domestic Hot Water" not Hydronic "hot water".

In this part of the country Hydronic "Boilers" (hot water, not steam) are quite frequently installed because the cost of natural gas is significantly lower than the cost of Electricity. I have worked on no less than a dozen New Construction Building that had a minimum of 2 Brand New "Hydronic" Boilers installed in them in the last 2 years.

No offense intended here but instead of ignoring the collective wisdom of some of the best professionsal in the industry that contribute on this site why don't you invest your time researching something of value. Say.. Hydronic heat theory, physics as it relates to HVAC, Thermodynamics as it relates to HAVC and possibly Electrical theory. If you are so darn intrested in why you believe that "Boilers" don't get installed in "New" buildings go talk to a Mechanical Engineer and ask them ! I suggest you find one that is not from Texas who has experience in climates that see temperature extreams below 20 degrees for more than a day or 2 (no offense to Texas in any way) .

You keep asking the same questions in a different way and evidently don't comprehend the answers !

Hey, if it looks like a duck (troll) and it qwacks like a duck (troll) the IT IS A DUCK (troll). Maybe not purposely but still.....

Originally Posted by GT Jets

There is no set rule for when a water heater is called a boiler, typically a boiler needs flow to heat the water properly, whereas a water heater does not.

That being said, boilers get pretty small, then with the addition of "Tankless water heaters" the definition gets more obscure.

I would basically put it in your head that any boiler (or water heater) that is being used to heat anything other than domestic water is a boiler, adversely, the heater used to heat domestic water is a "water heater".

The term "Boiler" is misleading anyway, if it "boils" your screwed... That would be a steam boiler....

That is the best answer I can muster up, if that is not acceptable and you want to challenge it, then so be it. Your running out of people to try and educate you any further.

GT

Thank you for your response. I appreciate your information.

There is no set rule for when a water heater is called a boiler, typically a boiler needs flow to heat the water properly, whereas a water heater does not.

That being said, boilers get pretty small, then with the addition of "Tankless water heaters" the definition gets more obscure.

I would basically put it in your head that any boiler (or water heater) that is being used to heat anything other than domestic water is a boiler, adversely, the heater used to heat domestic water is a "water heater".

The term "Boiler" is misleading anyway, if it "boils" your screwed... That would be a steam boiler....

That is the best answer I can muster up, if that is not acceptable and you want to challenge it, then so be it. Your running out of people to try and educate you any further.

GT

Originally Posted by Joehvac25

I'm not sure but I'm guessing your seeing boilers with an indirect water heater or storage tank.

One license was listed for an "Olive Garden" resturant as a boiler licensed for hot water supply. Domestic Hot water heaters are not licensed and regulated, so this is definetly a boiler. My question is wouldn't the "boiler" listed for the purpose of hot water supply be a commercial water heater not a boiler??? Why call it a boiler??

Are water heaters used in commercial applications considered, "boilers"??

Thank you for any help that you can provide.

Originally Posted by MHall

I would still appreciate a response to my question. If you read it, you will see that it has NOTHING to do with the previous questions I asked.

[U[/U]Please give my questions some understanding, as they are coming from an eighteen year old HS student who is only just begining to learn about this field.

Best.

Thank you.

I think one of the best ways to learn is to observe. The other best way is to learn hands on. Two things your not doing on here. You do tend to come across as a know it all and argumentative. Perhaps it's time to take a step back and observe from outside the room. You might see something (or lots of things) that you don't see now.

I'm not sure but I'm guessing your seeing boilers with an indirect water heater or storage tank.

Originally Posted by Joehvac25

If I were breaking into a field trying to learn I would never second guess anyone feeding me great info, even if they are wrong. I live in upper Michigan and I guarantee you will find zero buildings old or new relying on electric heat. Water is king around here.

My last question concerned the difference between boilers and hot water heaters. I will repost the question here in hope of receiving an answer from someone willing to help me understand:

In going through the TDLR Boiler Records, I have seen many licensed Boilers that are for the purpose of providing domestic hot water. Many laundry centers, hotels, apartments have a "boiler" listed for the purposes of: "hot water supply".

My question today is; Why are these units called "boilers" when they are doing the same thing a water heater does??? A commercial water heater does not have to be licensed, regulated etc as a boiler does. Why not have a large water heater??

Any information is appreciated. Thank you.

PS: The “boilers” listed for providing hot water supply could not too large, as I have seen these units listed as being located in smaller places such as apartments and even restaurants.