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Originally Posted by ammoniadog

Hi Andy. Is it just my imagination, or isn't POE a really crappy oil to use in a small refrigeration system?

Big systems also.

Originally Posted by ammoniadog

Doesn't it have a tendency to overheat and turn to crap and plug up cap tubes? One of the things I thought of when I read about True switching over to propane was that they might be more reliable, but then you had to say that the manufactures would likely stick with POE, and I began to loose all hope again.

Never fear. Clean systems prevail with POE oil

Originally Posted by ammoniadog

Can you say anything to reassure me?

Welcome to the "new norm".

Our branch here in South Texas just started up a Frick machine for natural gas separation that holds 10,000 gallons of R290. I didn't have anything to do with the S/U (I wish I did). I believe they said they are running somewhere around a -40* evap.. Pretty interesting stuff..

Yeah, we have been detecting flammable gases for many years.

Been using r-290 in natural gas field processing for a while now. System design is similar to nh3 with pump trap and cornell (or similar) liquid pump, with a curve that closely resembles r-22. I have used my appion recovery machine a number of times to move refrigerant without venting due to welders in the area. The only downside of using in large systems like these is 1) finding someone that will fill it and 2) the propane from your local propane supplier tends to have a lot of moisture so new filter driers are a necessity anytime new propane is added.

Originally Posted by r404a

all jokes aside, what method of leak detection is used? is there an electronic leak detector for propane?

Was going to try a Accutools eL320
I like their micron gauge a lot.
It says it will pick up on Hydrogen also so I might be giving the nitro/hydrogen leak detecion gas a shot too.

Originally Posted by Andy Schoen

In theory, MO will work with either propane or isobutane. But it is not ideal for a number of reasons. AB oil is an excellent choice with either propane or isobutane. POE will be used, however, as it works well with most current refrigerants. Compressor manufacturers have to go with what makes their lives simpler.

Hi Andy. Is it just my imagination, or isn't POE a really crappy oil to use in a small refrigeration system? Doesn't it have a tendency to overheat and turn to crap and plug up cap tubes? One of the things I thought of when I read about True switching over to propane was that they might be more reliable, but then you had to say that the manufactures would likely stick with POE, and I began to loose all hope again. Wouldn't less warranty returns and less disgruntled techs make the manufacturers lives easy enough?

Can you say anything to reassure me?

Thanks Andy but I will be starting the rumor that the POE/Propane combo is explosive J/K I'll meet you at AB oil .... We can do this!!!

all jokes aside, what method of leak detection is used? is there an electronic leak detector for propane?

Originally Posted by itsiceman

Is there a chance they will go back to MO in the HC pumps?
Bet guys would like this change a whole lot more to be rid of the POE

In theory, MO will work with either propane or isobutane. But it is not ideal for a number of reasons. AB oil is an excellent choice with either propane or isobutane. POE will be used, however, as it works well with most current refrigerants. Compressor manufacturers have to go with what makes their lives simpler.

Originally Posted by cjpwalker

Why would you need recovery equipment for a zero odp and zero greenhouse HC refrigerant?

Propane and isobutane do have a GWP value. Ok, ok, its only about 4.

Odds heavily favor EPA allowing HC venting in the near future

Correct me if I'm wrong but has Europe been using Propane as s refrigerant in domestic and light duty applications for years now?
Also aren't some of the existing r-12 " drop in" refrigerants blends using isobutane ??

Originally Posted by icemeister

If you don't recover, how do you vent? Run a hose through a window?

I assume the R290 used for refrigeration doesn't have a detectable odor, so it wouldn't be offensive to customers like SO2...or no?

The only cases i work on are small 100 grams but most supermarkets here are now bringing it in on all the upright cases aswell,correct there is no stenching agent in r290 a lot of people might not know that , most natural gases dont smell the stenching is added to alert people its there,between r290 & co2 i miss when i started first out at this crack 6951 tstats and r12 finish on a friday an see u monday

the real engineers came before us like my father ,they worked with flammable ,exsplosive and they had no recovery units or vacuum pumps or any stuff like that ,they were real techs and pioneers,laid an easy road for the rest of us thanks

Originally Posted by mark beiser

You were never getting any phosgene gas anyway, just a variety of acid vapors!

I don't know why the phosgene thing bugs me so much, but it's a continuously perpetuated myth in the industry, even by people who know better...

True that Mark.
A Dupont tech/instructor/rep told me in 1992 that it was a majority of hydrochloric and hydrofluoric acids.
Either way it isn't any fun breathing in the vapours. It's like inhaling a lit match.
I had a blower to supply fresh air to the weld area for both combustion and ventilation air that made it possible with out any danger and without the torch flame stutter-fluttering for lack of oxygen.

Originally Posted by coldjoe

Luckily in europe its legal to vent hydrocarbon refrigerants .There are limits to the charges allowed in indoor cabinets 1kg in a basement,1.5kg on a shopfloor,2.5kg in a storeroom.thankfully the freezers i work on only have 100grams.Agree about the availability of recovery machines almost non existant,the only one ive seen was big and bulky.

If you don't recover, how do you vent? Run a hose through a window?

I assume the R290 used for refrigeration doesn't have a detectable odor, so it wouldn't be offensive to customers like SO2...or no?

Originally Posted by coldjoe

My father is a retired tech too he got a bad burn on his hand from a metyl type refrigerant years ago,i was crapping myself the first hc fridge i fixed but its like everything else you just get used to it .first one i done took 3 times longer than it does now .the key to hc is have plenty of nitrogen available to flush.

Valuable words those are.

My father is a retired tech too he got a bad burn on his hand from a metyl type refrigerant years ago,i was crapping myself the first hc fridge i fixed but its like everything else you just get used to it .first one i done took 3 times longer than it does now .the key to hc is have plenty of nitrogen available to flush.

Originally Posted by coldjoe

That video is only showing how to service without a flame,its perfectly acceptable to take a torch to a propane system once the dryer has been cut out and the system flushed with nitrogen a couple of bursts. I normally use aline tap valve to open the system and purge then weld in a shraeder for evacuating and recharge .its important to put a copper bonnet and nut on the shraeder seemingly propane doesnt agree with the shraeder cap rubber seal

Thanks coldjoe for jumping in on this thread. It surely helps to have some input from someone who has actually dealt with an HC refrigerant system. Most of us Yanks have never even seen one...yet.

My father used to work with Methyl back in the 1940s & 1950s, which was also flammable, and the general approach was similar. Just purge until it's safe to light the torch.

That video is only showing how to service without a flame,its perfectly acceptable to take a torch to a propane system once the dryer has been cut out and the system flushed with nitrogen a couple of bursts. I normally use aline tap valve to open the system and purge then weld in a shraeder for evacuating and recharge .its important to put a copper bonnet and nut on the shraeder seemingly propane doesnt agree with the shraeder cap rubber seal

icemeister, Although that video is interesting, it is not feasible for commercial applications. First, being clearance for that monstrosity of a crimping tool. Secondly, the abuse the equipment endures. I'm curious as to why a completely evacuated system would require crimp fittings and not being able to use a torch.

Every leaker is going to require an evacuation. If they begin to use this on bigger systems, I can see techs being injured and equipment being damaged while trying to take shortcuts. I guess it's a good way to weed out the hacks.