Post a reply to the thread: Propane based R22
You may choose an icon for your message from this list
Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site.
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Will turn www.example.com into [URL]http://www.example.com[/URL].
Sounds great - now we can leak check with a propane torch or even a cigarette lighter. PHM ------- Originally Posted by welling service I have a customer that wants me to charge his HP with propane based R22. I have never heard of this refrigerant. He says he has used it and can get it cheap. I don't like the sound of it. Sounds dangerous to me. What is it?
Open the valve and stick a match at it and let the customer explain why he wants to get someone killed and be responsible for that.
This has certainly been a topic elsewhere on this forum. There's several variations of hydrocarbon based refrigerants out there. Some manufacturers have implemented its use in their systems. TRUE MANUFACTURING has marketed several commercial refrigerators using R290 - a hydrocarbon based refrigerant. There's others out there (commercial and domestic) that will follow suit. NOT so much for the price, but in their efforts in going GREEN. Less GWP (Global Warming Potential). Systems approved for its use are limited to smaller refrigeration units. However, it's NOT for use systems requiring POUNDS of the stuff. I figure the system size limitations COULD be that, in case it leaks, a heavier-than-air propane-based refrigerant would be too lean to accumulate & cause an explosion hazard. Otherwise, accumulation in a garage, attic, etc. - with an ignition source such as contacts closing - could light it off. MOST combustibles have known and established explosive ranges when mixed with oxygen. Their lower explosive limit (LEL) and upper explosive limit (UEL) defines the boundaries (in percent when mixed with oxygen) as to what's too rich (above the UEL) and what's too lean (below the LEL). The "in-between" is what will getcha. MicahWes said propane's explosive limits are 2.37%–9.5%. I didn't look it up, but that sounds plausible. MY points of contention is with education of those in OUR trades and with the "practices" of those we call "hacks". Regarding education: I foresee an entirely new set of safety practices for employing our test equipment (leak detectors to identify hydrocarbons) for use on EVERY service call - to sniff what's "in there" and therefore KNOW whether it IS or ISN'T a combustible. Obviously, your repair practices using a torch will be significantly altered if - IT IS. Regarding the hacks: These "trunk-slammers" (of their car) live down the street from all of us. Their repair charges are much lower than you pros - and those customers (as described in the start of this thread) are broke and just want their AC to work. So they'll pay that knucklehead to do it. The knucklehead will do it, but not "prominently and permanently mark" the system somehow. So far, most of you have never encountered a flammable refrigerant. I do refrigeration...and I haven't (and refrigeration was "bastardized" by the many replacements for R12 & 502). So, you're REALLY not looking for it or expect it. One of you shows up for another "not cooling" call and, through any number of circumstances in your repair efforts (with your torch or an electrical control), you set off that NON-odorous flammable refrigerant because...well...you weren't looking for it and didn't expect it...and because the KNUCKLEHEAD, HACK, TRUNK-SLAMMER that serviced it before you didn't mark the system with what he put in it. Anyway...so the practices within our trades shall change and you guys need to be on the forefront of those changes... Watch out for yourselves.
Originally Posted by lytning More like explosions. Fires can sometimes be put out. Explosions, not so much. Most explosions put themselves out.... If they're big enough! :-p
Propane has very narrow explosive limits with ordinary air as the oxidant. Its explosive range is like 2-9%. Outside of this mixture, it will not combust.
More like explosions. Fires can sometimes be put out. Explosions, not so much. Originally Posted by Coolingfolks The problem with some blended refrigerants is they have a different glide....meaning in the event of a leak, all the other ingredients may leak out leaving you with pure liquid propane. This stuff makes big fires!
Scares the crap out of me. As was mentioned our recovery units and vacuum pumps are not explosion proof and neither are we. How are we going to know what some idiot has charged a system with. I remember all this when R12 was going away and no one marked the refrigerant type. It won't get any better with the new R22 replacements. BTW how much propane is in R416. I think quite a bit but no problems as far as I know. Any thoughts? Originally Posted by myott We had a class the other day on new R22 replacements and the guy giving the class from Honeywell said the environmental nuts are pushing this hard at the EPA. He then showed us a demonstration video of a House Refrigerator charged with propane. They simulated a small leak and the defrost timer cut in and guess what!!!!! BBBOOOOMMMMMMM One Hell of blast, blew the door completely off and sent the ice bin flying in the air. Not in my house!!!
Sounds fishy! If he can get it so cheap and says he has used it, then why ain't he putting it in himself? I wouldn't do it!
Correct it needs oxygen to blow. When my reclaim machine failed last week it blew out a mist of refrigerant. Pretty sure that would have been a fireball with propane.
Originally Posted by anthonyac1 what happens when the compressor shorts out internally and obviously makes sparks will it blow up???? or not since you need oxygen, i think it will still go kaaaaboooom???? honestly its messed up think about it you have these hacks throwing it in these systems then here you go replace txv under normal procedures starts a huge fire now its on your insurance company, kind of not fair gotta becareful out there. No oxygen, no boom.
Propane's explosive limits are 2.37%–9.5%. It will not explode below or above these concentrations. It is very common as a DX refrigerant in household refrigerators in other countries and has been for a long while now. The amount required is only a few ounces. It is also widely burned in gas absorption refrigeration systems, so it really can heat and cool!
Originally Posted by welling service I have a customer that wants me to charge his HP with propane based R22. I have never heard of this refrigerant. He says he has used it and can get it cheap. I don't like the sound of it. Sounds dangerous to me. What is it? what happens when the compressor shorts out internally and obviously makes sparks will it blow up???? or not since you need oxygen, i think it will still go kaaaaboooom???? honestly its messed up think about it you have these hacks throwing it in these systems then here you go replace txv under normal procedures starts a huge fire now its on your insurance company, kind of not fair gotta becareful out there.
Propane for all your heating AND COOLING needs!why didnt i think of that?
propane does have the same boiling point at r22 but its just a lil more combustable.
The problem with some blended refrigerants is they have a different glide....meaning in the event of a leak, all the other ingredients may leak out leaving you with pure liquid propane. This stuff makes big fires!
I am not going to use it. I do keep several types of refrigerant on my truck and propane is not one of them.
We had a class the other day on new R22 replacements and the guy giving the class from Honeywell said the environmental nuts are pushing this hard at the EPA. He then showed us a demonstration video of a House Refrigerator charged with propane. They simulated a small leak and the defrost timer cut in and guess what!!!!! BBBOOOOMMMMMMM One Hell of blast, blew the door completely off and sent the ice bin flying in the air. Not in my house!!!
Originally Posted by junkhound Have built small experimental units with BBQ propane, ran thru a drier, work great with R22 txv/scroll compressor. Water/water unit outdoors where any R290 leak can flow downhill. One of the safety concerns to remember is that the drier removes the percaptan as well as moisture so no aroma/smell to indicate a leak. Anything anybody here builds never leaks anyways, eh? Odorant is Methyl Mercaptan,,,,,,,,,,,
Armaflex will cover that leak for you hehe
Have built small experimental units with BBQ propane, ran thru a drier, work great with R22 txv/scroll compressor. Water/water unit outdoors where any R290 leak can flow downhill. One of the safety concerns to remember is that the drier removes the percaptan as well as moisture so no aroma/smell to indicate a leak. Anything anybody here builds never leaks anyways, eh?
Forum Rules
