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Originally Posted by DocHVAC

All smoke and mirrors, the only way to have IAQ is to remove bad air and replace it with fresh air.

I would add- maintain an air change in 4-5 hours when occupied and <50%RH throughout the structure. This is basic. There may be other needs depending on individuals and location.
This means mechanical ventilation and dehumidification in green grass regions.
Regards TB

All smoke and mirrors, the only way to have IAQ is to remove bad air and replace it with fresh air.

Wow I stumbled across this thread and couldn't even read it all but it did make me laugh. TWO of my neighbors (one is a pretty good friend) got roped into selling these things. MY friend started strong and heavy buying the minimum purchase of like 2k I think. Telling me I should sell them in my business. Etc. He was an INSTANT expert of air and water problems. But as usually with MLM he wanted me to sell them RIGHT AWAY. I just laughed and said I would pass his cards out to people and that was IT. I laughed too when he told me what one costs. I looked up the MANY articles and reports regarding ozone generators and decided that with my minimal respiratory issues there would be no way I would want one of these things.

I think his enthusiasm lasted about 4 or 5 months.

He soon realized that NOBODY wanted these things. He wasted all this time and energy and ended up selling them all at cost!! Now if it was such a slamming good product I am sure people would have snapped them up after trying them. It simply did not happen though. He however did get wrapped up in another MLM scheme selling rainforest herbs now too so he didn't escape it completely. But he did get away from EQ.

Even my neighbors across the street that do it seem to only be interested in getting others to sell. The one time I talked to the guy he started right away telling me how he is in the business now of helping others be financially independent and blah blah blah. I cut him off to avoid the conversation. And they put out fliers through the neighborhood with asthma spelled wrong!!

It simply is another fad that will probably fade over time. Right now they are going strong but as with every MLM scheme you can only sell SO MANY units and only recruit SO MANY people.

haha! BE That's too funny. I enjoyed it, all my time here was time well spent. I did learn alot though, my business is a lot better and I know when not to bother doing a field trial...actually I would say I benefitted from it. so thanks..I got a lot of practise with overcoming objection...in the respect that most objections are merely questions that once answered go away...practise makes perfect. pce

Moldi
Going back to the start of this thread - Thanks for disagreeing without being disagreeable.

Thanks PME, I appreciate it and yes, inexperienced dealers are the biggest problem. Have a great week everyone! You can see by my earliest posts that I was overzealous as a new dealer too and I lost a lot of business through trial and error...the info should have been available but that is here nor there. I know now, am cautious and will take calls 24hrs from a trial so we can fix anything right away. So thanks again

Originally Posted by NHMoldInspector

Honestly I am not sure. Like I said, I know that the mold in my bathroom grows when my unit is gone so it is obvious that it is working.
(...)
Pme- I will ask my mgr, I don't feel like trying to figure that out.

Thanks for your time and replies, NHMoldInspector. I found some research stating that 1 ppm almost completely inhibited the growth of bacteria, but they mentioned it casually without supporting data so I won't bother quoting it here. Complete sterilization is done with hundreds of ppm (again according to what I read), which would be dangerous, but continuously inhibiting the growth sounds good enough. Some molds and bacteria are so nasty to animals that I guess a little peroxide is the lesser of two evils. So, I'm ready to believe that if the unit is used carefully like you describe, it will inhibit the growth of mold and bacteria and there can be a net improvement in the health of people. I sounds like it's a balancing act and that there is a lot of value in using an experienced dealer who can adjust it correctly depending on the situation and the people, like you said. If possible my first choice would still be to vacate the premises with the mold problem, fumigate while I'm gone with high levels of ozone, bleach, peroxide, etc... and then control humidity to prevent regrowth. I also don't understand why humidity control, combined with a HEPA filter, isn't always enough (or else why use that machine?) but then I don't know all that much about mold control. That technology sounds scary at first, but you appear so careful, responsible and experienced in its use that I'd trust you. I definitely still don't trust the people who seem to say that everyone should use it any which way and that it's always safe at any level, though.

I understand that you have other things to do than post here all day and winning the trust of people who are unlikely to ever be your clients. Again, thanks for taking the time to respond in a somewhat hostile forum, keeping your cool, and good luck to you.

Honestly I am not sure. Like I said, I know that the mold in my bathroom grows when my unit is gone so it is obvious that it is working. Some of these threads are hard to follow cuz at points I am tlaking about RCI and at others the RCI /Ozone based Fresh Air...just in case you hadn't noticed. I have been growing a mycology project as well and the rate of contamns goes up when the unit is gone. I think I had mentioned before that I don't believe the unit can handle 3000sqft like it says but it can do 1000-1500 effectively and with a Ductworx addition (the EQ system is 1 Ductworx and one Fresh Air) 3000 seems like no problem. My suggestion is find someone with nasty allergies, call ecoquest and they will put you in touch with a dealer near you and do a trial with someone who has serious issues...then pick another person....All of my customers don't have the problems they had before RCI so to me it is obvious it works. RGF has an awesome research and development department where EQ was more of a marketing company in the beginning. RGF's testing was decent but you guys will scruitinize anything that you aren't used too. I just think that the benefits outweigh the risks. I am literally risking my life on it because of using a unit with COPD...I have relief within a couple minutes of being back with my FA. So if there is something harmful (and I have thanked BE several times for the cleaning chemical knowledge which I apply and let my customers know first) My lungs are really sensitive and I am pretty certain I would feel the irritation, since even warm air is hard to breathe and extremely noticable. hopefully at some point Ray Dickenson will jump on here. From what I understand he is an HVAC engineer and is in my upline but we have never met cuz he is so busy. He is presently designing some new system incorperating our technology from what my MGR had mentioned. Like I said before, I disagree and the material is out there but I don't have it in me to look for it....I care, but at the same point I don't. I really was just coming on here to say hello to the people I argued with and saw that Kevin was trying to discredit our product using documents that didn't pertain to what we were talking about and cited 10 yr old documents on a 5 yr old technology. I am sure his intensions were good as are all of you, but just because we don't know anything about it doesn't mean it should be trashed. It needs to be used cautiously until like in my house all of my chemicals a green and enzyme based, so no interaction. I will remember not to leave a bowl of straight pine sol on the table...I still think you should have mixed a tsp with 2 gallons of water and mopped the floor so it would mimic normal use instead of testing with a bowl of concentrate but I said that before.

Anyway my email is in my profile and i'll pop in periodically but I really don't feel like another 6months of 20 posts a day, I am too busy. You know how I feel , I know how you feel but when I see an old woman struggling who feels good after getting our unit I wish you could see that. All the customers I have had with some of the most severe allergies ever are normal after purchasing our products. Since we work as "you try first and if it works you buy" that means it made a significant difference in the lives of 7 million plus people. It is stuff like that that I can't just drop it and the fact of what it does to the mold and the odors in my own home. It is obvios when you have a lil patch that never grows and then you get rid of the FA and the stripe is 4 ft long in 2 weeks. It has had plenty of moisture, so the only thing keeping it from growing was the fresh air. I would suggest that everyone interested, like them or not, try one, but ask for and experienced dealer cuz an inexperienced dealer can cause you a whole lot of discomfort with one. And I am for harsher regulations of the dealers. They should have to take a teast to be sure they know how to propperly asses the situation for the device. I made a woman with COPD miserable when I first started because the unit was set too high and it was my fault...but I was new. I agree we need to know more and at the first sign of agitation I will throw it out...But so far , so good. I did take air samples in a house after a week of use and the spore count on the micro 5 went from 30- 8 so it was helping....anyway I need to go, so take care everyone. Pme- I will ask my mgr, I don't feel like trying to figure that out.

1 ppm in air, not 0.03% solution

Originally Posted by NHMoldInspector

You grabbed one piece of info without looking further. Concentrated H2O2 is an extreme mutagen at high levels. However the ammount produced is far less than the .03% that you get in a grocery store.
(...)
Your concern is waranted but you need to do a little more research.

The crucial piece of information is the concentration in air, not in a liquid. Does the peroxide concentration ever get higher than 1 ppm? How many ppm are needed to get the anti-microbial effect? I'll look for your other posts, I hope they answer that. If the concentration needed for an anti-microbial effect is less than 1 ppm, then this whole thing would start to make sense to me.

Thanks

Mark, that may be an argument against the cell itsellf but hvac systems aren't in most of the houses around here so there isn't going to be an issue with air changes. Plus oxiders attach to stuf no matter how fast the air is moving. A hydroxl radical is gone so fast it cant be seen.

BE- Congrats on the NASA thing. I think we established that I wasn't totaly anti filter anymore and I knew there was Hepa filters used there too. I am not claiming this is the end all product, I am saying as you have said IAQ is incremental steps with not one single solution, I think it has a place. As for the ozone it is off. I thought it was on 250. but I will leave it that way. The .01-.02ppm isn't going to harm anything. I was talking to my MGR, we don't talk much sine I am more into mold than Ecoquest but I knew he had several COPD cases with Fresh Airs and they all have shown improvement. One specifically in Cali's # went to the mid 90's which is a healthy lung...

As far as my comment about the testing, the particle thing was the major establishment along with the mystery compound but you know what casued it, the pine sol. As for the ozone, well when you turn on an ozone generator it generates ozone and though it was close to going over it never did if I recall correctly. You would not give clotting medication to a person having a stroke, you would use the right meds. Our right environment is an old house with people who are leaning green and hate airfresheners and potpourri and have problems. We let them try it so they only buy it if it works...but we all know where eachother stand and more research is needed but we are allowed to smoke chemicalls and in this case, often the benefits outweigh the risks. Have a great night.

Sure. You wouldn't be the first.

I can post a study that has those requirements! But, it could be mistaken for shameless promotion. Should I do it anyways?

Originally Posted by NHMoldInspector

Please guys can ya try a lilo harder, at least breatheasy makes legitimate , researched points...you guys aren't even giving me a challenge.

How about some "legitimate , researched points" as to the effectiveness of the Eco Quest product.
NASA's use of similar technology is no endorsement of your product. They are using the technology for something totally different, and it is in a very controlled, enclosed, environment with many other environmental systems in place.
The 2 studies you love to point at were both limited to relatively small volume test chambers, and very limited in scope.

Nothing you have posted indicates in any way that the product is effective, or completely safe, for use in a whole house environment.
Even a tight house exchanges air at a much higher rate than the small amount of air the unit moves. "Chaos theory" doesn't work in a structure that is exchanging its entire volume of air with the outdoors at a faster rate than the device can treat the air in the house.

Show me that it is safe and effective at doing what it claims in a dynamic home sized environment. I don't care about university studies in an enclosed 10x10x8(or whatever) test chamber with stainless steel surfaces. They have very little relevance to my house.

breathe easy.. that made me laugh out loud

News flash - NASA is buying my filters!

No kidding. I was hoping this topic would come up again. I received a call a few weeks ago from NASA wanting to place an order for filters. They are now a customer. So my filters must be pretty good. They are being used by NASA.

The appropriate response should be - so what? Just as it should be on NASA "using" any other product.

I believe it is capable of handling some VOC's due to the University of Beijing report which it destroyed fromaldehyde significantly unlike most PCO's that create it from different chemical interactions I guess.

I was under the impression that bioaerosols bio is living so it would pertain to aerosolized organisms. Bioaerosol testing brings up mold spores and air sampling on google so I was correct. It has been a while. I spent hundreds of hours on this board arguing and it took a lot of time where I could have been making money. After my PC crashed I lost a lot of the stuff I had accumulated through thousands of hours of reading and I don't have it in me to do it again. If you read this and the PCO buyer beware thread from the beginning...and the Living air thread you will find the majority of what you can think of for arguments and my answers to them. I cited lots of references too so you can read them yourself.
Plus it destroys odors incredibly fast DSS, goodby tomorrow. provided the conditions are right. Part of the problem is the inexperienced dealers don't take the commercial IAQ course since it isn't manditory unless you want to sell commercial equip which I do. It is the same advanced oxidation specialist training that RGF implimented but you learn a lot. I think the dearlers need to be watched more closely when they are new and the precautions should be stressed more but the product is solid and I stake my mold business on it often.

Don't get me wrong, BE has made some legit points and I have incorperated that knowledge into their application. I just feel their benefit far outways the risks. There are precautions you can take too like only using green cleaners. I use EcoH and it works for almost everything, even glass with no odor or streaking. I know what it can do on microbes. My tub and shower curtains mold within a week of me lending out my unit, religiosly. Clean it up, turn the fresh air on and I never clean my tub...but I am having to change curtains every time I am without the technology. I suppose it is about time I finish biociding the bathroom anyway.

Would bioaerosols mean VOC's?

The Uof C report despite the holes in it stated that the Fresh Air with a 6"RCI cell removed over 90% of bioaerosols in the first 60 min.

You missed what I was saying. It is the friendly oxidisers created buy the interaction of the broad spectru UV on the matrix in the presence of H2O in the air. If your RH drops below 40% RCI and PHI will not work so hot. The Uv and the Catalyst create the oxidisers, the oxidisers kill the microbes, not the UV.

Exposure time to UV is only one element to achieving a high kill. There is also Intensity. Since you place your product perpendicular to the airflow and your lamp sizes are 9" in length, how do you propose you are getting enough exposure time to kill the microbes?

I'm concerned at the science Ecoquest uses to market their product.

Where is Ecoquest's test results for treating the air? I've seen the Kansas state test results for treating a surface? Treating air vs treating a surface are two different processes and you can't expect to have the same results on both applications using the same product.

Originally Posted by Keith Jordan

The reason you have the NASA approval is because you can pay $500 and become NASA approved. That's it, there is no great revelation here.

PCO has its benefits, but not in residential applications and not for germicidal applications.

Explain to me what happens to the bacteria when it comes in contact with a UV light? Can you tell me the microwatts produced at 18" or 36" of the Ecoquest product?

It is the oxidisers that kill the microbes, everyone knows UV is a rippoff cuz of the exposure time necessary for effectiveness...so again your point isn't relevant.

Please guys can ya try a lilo harder, at least breatheasy makes legitimate , researched points...you guys aren't even giving me a challenge.

PME- Did you read that "2. Chronic exposure: No signs or symptoms of chronic exposure to hydrogen peroxide have been reported in humans. " But yet we have 7 million units out there. That would be continuous exposure...

If I don't respond for a while it isn't because you trumped me, it is because unless one of you can post a legitimate argument using anything remotely close to applying to my machines, this is a waste of time...at least come up with something feasable. Kev, they have more residential applications than commercial. Have you ever even seen RCI in person, probably not.