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There's a pump that periodically empties the steam generator of its water. It's called the self-cleaning (SC) pump. When the controller calls for that function, it monitors its water level with the water probe. If the controller doesn't sense the water level drop after adequate time, it shows the error code that the pump isn't working.

The usual cause of its failure is limescale jamming it up.

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What does it mean check S C pump??? on a SCC102G Rational combi oven

Originally Posted by Mike19

I'm afraid to see these LOV's in ten years. The only ones I've worked on are at Mcd's. Some of the ones at the busier restaurants filter a lot of times in a day, and will take out a pump/motor in under a year.

In my opinion the electronics are a little overcomplicated. I've worked on a couple of Henny Penny LOV's in Mcd's that where out of warranty. The Henny Pennys seemed easier to work on than the frymasters, and seem to be holding up pretty good.

Can't disagree. Those fryers up front doing french fries see a ton of filter cycles. The good thing for the pumps is that there's no chance of Frank-the-fry-filter-person leaving the drain valve and refill valve open, and taking a 20-minute break, with the pump just a chooglin away.

I've only worked on the older Henney Pennys at Wendys, and I loved how the contactors were right up front.

I'm afraid to see these LOV's in ten years. The only ones I've worked on are at Mcd's. Some of the ones at the busier restaurants filter a lot of times in a day, and will take out a pump/motor in under a year.

In my opinion the electronics are a little overcomplicated. I've worked on a couple of Henny Penny LOV's in Mcd's that where out of warranty. The Henny Pennys seemed easier to work on than the frymasters, and seem to be holding up pretty good.

Originally Posted by BadBozo2315

Yes, that's the original linear acutuator, on the Gen *1* LOV's, in 2007 maybe?. Hey, I'm old. At that time, they had not been selling them to the general market yet.

They didn't have the gas ones ready then, I saw one in the test kitchen though. Looked like a real bear to work on.

Yeah, the rotory actuators are better.

I believe the AIF's are only McD. I've put in some JIB / ATO only units at burger kings, I think.

Ive seen 2011 model gas (gen 2) units that were linear still.

Saw a sonic the other day with a ATO h50 wth 35lb frypots. But manual filtration

Great discussion here guys.

Also remember that distilled water is the only way to stop galvonic action in any body of water. So even a boiler with RO water feeding it will still have to have the corrosion inhibitor replaced as with any normal water supply.

If the water will conduct for the water level circuitry, it will conduct the naturally occuring galvonic currents. (Galvonic corrosion/electrolysis)

Boiler plate steel is not as weak as magnesium (corrosion inhibitor for most boilers), but its close. You'll have no scale but your boiler shell will still corode away.

Just no way around proper maintenance.

Originally Posted by BadBozo2315

Yeah, 50 would be the highest I'd like to see out of an RO system working properly, for scale reduction. Course, when you get really low, and you have exposed probes, they may not conduct.

I had a kettle at a place, they wouldn't replace it, even though it would blow it's water charge out every week or so through a pinhole at the bottom.
We always replaced the water with distilled, and after a few weeks, I couldn't get the silly thing to believe it had a proper water level in it. Added a pinch of salt, and they were good for another week.

I heard the same thing from Manitowoc, that they've had problems with people using RO water, and there are so few minerals the water level probe won't conduct.

Originally Posted by CFESAmasterEGSR

Is that the rotary actuator style? They were building them when I was at the factory a couple of years ago. Said they would cut off a wooden broom handle.

All I've seen in the field have been linear actuator type of the gen 2 Frymaster lov fryers.

I have seen frymasters with the ATO system in the general market now. And 35lb frypot h50 models. And with basically the 3000 computer, but I haven't seen a full featured "AIF" (LOV) bank anywhere but mcd so far. Is that what you meant by "not even released yet"? Is there an expected release time for the full featured AIF (mcd LOV) to the general market (non mcd)?

The rotary actuator is a welcome improvement over the linear actuator that wears the valve stem notched bracket out so the valve doesn't close all the way. I've had to change a few of those.

They were talking about their KFC open fryer to replace the pressure fryers when I was down there, but I haven't seen anything of that yet either.

Yes, that's the original linear acutuator, on the Gen *1* LOV's, in 2007 maybe?. Hey, I'm old. At that time, they had not been selling them to the general market yet.

They didn't have the gas ones ready then, I saw one in the test kitchen though. Looked like a real bear to work on.

Yeah, the rotory actuators are better.

I believe the AIF's are only McD. I've put in some JIB / ATO only units at burger kings, I think.

Originally Posted by Mike19

The other thing with reverse osmosis systems, is generally they don't remove 100% of the minerals. If you check with a TDS Meter (total dissolved solids) your incoming tds may be 300, and coming out of the RO may be 50.

Yeah, 50 would be the highest I'd like to see out of an RO system working properly, for scale reduction. Course, when you get really low, and you have exposed probes, they may not conduct.

I had a kettle at a place, they wouldn't replace it, even though it would blow it's water charge out every week or so through a pinhole at the bottom.
We always replaced the water with distilled, and after a few weeks, I couldn't get the silly thing to believe it had a proper water level in it. Added a pinch of salt, and they were good for another week.

The other thing with reverse osmosis systems, is generally they don't remove 100% of the minerals. If you check with a TDS Meter (total dissolved solids) your incoming tds may be 300, and coming out of the RO may be 50.

Originally Posted by ECtofix

Next item on the hit list? That vicious-looking, "gotta-have-'cause-we-only-got-one" three-phase monstrosity of a toaster - the Antunes UTX ones. I only worked on enough of those to really dislike them...ALLOT!

Had an emergency service call for one of those last Sunday. It broke and they did not have a spare. If you go to a really high-volume McDonalds they will have two of those UTX toasters. One they use, and one in the back for a spare in case the other one breaks.

I'm glad someone finally clarified the RO issue. An RO does not use salt. That's an ion exchange filter system (water softner).

Every mcd I've been in working has a small RO system to feed the bun steamer, coffee machines, and mccafe. It is usually mounted high up the wall near the multiplex. It has like 4-6 small cartridge filters that are part of it. Plus a pressure tank.

The steamers still get crappy but remember, the steam may be clean but there is product in there. If you think they still get scaled up bad, you should see how bad a Taco Bell steamer gets scaled up.

Originally Posted by BadBozo2315

> I'm sure ANY tech would agree that an engineer outta be a tech in the field for awhile before deciding they've got the wits about them to design something.

So I'm finishing up training on the (not even released yet) Frymaster LOV fryer series out in Shreeveport. The instructor points out a 3-vat unit, says put your hand on that clip that holds the (right or left -most, I forget) fill actuator onto it's valve, in preparation for removing and reinstalling said actuator if it ever failed. Everyone in the class tried and failed. They really wanted to see if/how we could do it, because they had no answer. You might be able to remove it with a long hooked rod, but you were not going to get it back in. However, if you were to use a slightly elongated clip, you would be able to reach it, and just pull it out, no

Is that the rotary actuator style? They were building them when I was at the factory a couple of years ago. Said they would cut off a wooden broom handle.

All I've seen in the field have been linear actuator type of the gen 2 Frymaster lov fryers.

I have seen frymasters with the ATO system in the general market now. And 35lb frypot h50 models. And with basically the 3000 computer, but I haven't seen a full featured "AIF" (LOV) bank anywhere but mcd so far. Is that what you meant by "not even released yet"? Is there an expected release time for the full featured AIF (mcd LOV) to the general market (non mcd)?

The rotary actuator is a welcome improvement over the linear actuator that wears the valve stem notched bracket out so the valve doesn't close all the way. I've had to change a few of those.

They were talking about their KFC open fryer to replace the pressure fryers when I was down there, but I haven't seen anything of that yet either.

> I'm sure ANY tech would agree that an engineer outta be a tech in the field for awhile before deciding they've got the wits about them to design something.

So I'm finishing up training on the (not even released yet) Frymaster LOV fryer series out in Shreeveport. The instructor points out a 3-vat unit, says put your hand on that clip that holds the (right or left -most, I forget) fill actuator onto it's valve, in preparation for removing and reinstalling said actuator if it ever failed. Everyone in the class tried and failed. They really wanted to see if/how we could do it, because they had no answer. You might be able to remove it with a long hooked rod, but you were not going to get it back in. However, if you were to use a slightly elongated clip, you would be able to reach it, and just pull it out, no problem.

I said quite loudly and to the instructors something along the lines of What The Hell Were You Thinking. Who's the engineer who designed this baloney?

Through one of the classroom doors comes this guy. The instructor says, here, here's that engineer, and runs away- he knew what was coming. When asked why on Earth he used the paticular type and size of the pin-no-human-could-reach, he said they were overstocked with those pins on the factory floor, and his boss insisted they use them up! I kid you not. I pressed him on it. He was serious! So for the the price of a $.99 longer pin, service techs were forced to choose to die gring an access panel on the end of the bank, or flip the bank upside down (!), and he got to use up his floor stock of small pins.

[sigh... Calm down now BadBozo...]

> What's funny is, for ALL a Rational can do, ALL they're used for in our kitchens is as steamers or ovens.

Absolutely! It's a crime. They get sold on these at the trade shows. All the new schools in our area nowadays *have* to have combi's- I guess it's a new law or something because they all seem to buy 2 or more. And the lunchladies *only* use steam mode, manual continious. Why on Earth did you spend $40,000 on 2 SCC 102E White Efficiency combis to reheat a tray of green beans? That's my tax dollars there folks. Grrr...

BTW, if you company will spring for it, go to the Rational training up in Shaumberg, Il. Almost a week of very good hands-on training.

> WOW! It was good! F-A-R better than my microwave can do for me!

So, then, you're aparently single, yes?

Originally Posted by ECtofix

...I guess they don't have time for that and go with their expertise in the culinary arts.

...and they know what they're doing.

Tonight I got a to-go plate of Grilled Tuna, fresh from (I didn't care) with a spritz of (?)...and...(and I didn't understand the rest of it...so) blah, blah topped with blah-blah-blah. I said "WOW! That sounds good!"

WOW! It was good! F-A-R better than my microwave can do for me!

I suppose I should've posted this in the "Food & Grill Forum", but I didn't know what to say.

Originally Posted by BadBozo2315

Is there a general Manufacturers Engineering Goofyness threads in these forums?

I'm sure ANY tech would agree that an engineer outta be a tech in the field for awhile before deciding they've got the wits about them to design something.

---

I KNOW steamers and ovens in my sleep. I'm very adept with Groen combis. I can deal with most basic combis - even Blodgett's old mess of a combi.

However, I'm still learning these Rationals and their complexities. NOBODY had them in our market (mid-Tennessee) when I was in the field, so I never saw one. Closest thing in complexity was the Convotherms - and just a handful of those.

Where I work now, there's 16 Rationals (maybe more). From the original CCC series to the SCCs (2010 models) - and everything in between. This place I work at now is like a field test site for ANY restaurant equipment.

Anyway, I do welcome the challenge of engaging with 'em when they break. That is usually the old ones. Thankfully we have spares to swap out, thereby allowing us some "quality" time with one when one fails and is brought to the shop.

What's funny is, for ALL a Rational can do, ALL they're used for in our kitchens is as steamers or ovens. I don't think any of our dozens of Chefs are interested in learning any of the "programmed" food preparation or what "combi" mode can offer them. With an expected sitting of "thousands" of faces to feed, I guess they don't have time for that and go with their expertise in the culinary arts.

>Rationals are a piece of work, with their sensors for everything. They're designed to be so sensitive that I'm surprised they don't have a fault code for using foul language towards it.

Bwahah! I love how they designed the makeup/humidity control air intake pipe (that leaks) right above the bazillion dollar motor. The motor that if you breathe heavily on it will short out and you no longer get the magic green light to come on any more.

And when I first saw their new SCC WE "White Efficiency" series, I nearly had a heart attack! I mean, I work in Savannah, GA on occation, and I'm one of the more open-minded guys you'll meet. However, it might be a somewhat hard sell to the folks hereabouts.

But we digress, once again. Is there a general Manufacturers Engineering Goofyness threads in these forums?

Originally Posted by BadBozo2315

To clarify/correct my previous post (yer honor), the salt-using units are water softeners, not RO (reverse osmosis). The salt is used to do some crap with ion exchange blah blah blah. RO uses high pressure to drive water through a permeable membrane.

Ahh! I guess that proves I know diddly about water treatment. All I've even fooled with are filters on or behind dedicated equipment.

Originally Posted by BadBozo2315

>Our Rationals still DO get scale accumulation and must be periodically descaled.

Yeah, I work on a lot of them. They do some of the most brain-dead things... I've got a college with an electric, no treatment system on the water, and very bad scale problem as they just leave it steaming 20 hours a day on continious.
Anyway what happens is the elbow where the water enters the boiler will scale up every 2 months due to it being so small in diameter. I have to pull the boiler out, and horse around to get it clear.

We gotta do the same. We HAD a pump (Rational's) to get descaler into the SCCs, but it crapped out. Most of the time we pull the boiler. On some, if nothing is horribly plugged up, we can remove probes and pour it in with a funnel.

Rationals are a piece of work, with their sensors for everything. They're designed to be so sensitive that I'm surprised they don't have a fault code for using foul language towards it.

Gaaa! Don't get old, kids.

To clarify/correct my previous post (yer honor), the salt-using units are water softeners, not RO (reverse osmosis). The salt is used to do some crap with ion exchange blah blah blah. RO uses high pressure to drive water through a permeable membrane.

>Our Rationals still DO get scale accumulation and must be periodically descaled.

Yeah, I work on a lot of them. They do some of the most brain-dead things... I've got a college with an electric, no treatment system on the water, and very bad scale problem as they just leave it steaming 20 hours a day on continious.
Anyway what happens is the elbow where the water enters the boiler will scale up every 2 months due to it being so small in diameter. I have to pull the boiler out, and horse around to get it clear.

I never had any complaints about RAM units. I'll admit I only got my hands one of their new ones with the freezer cabinet, but RAM (or Automated Equipment for awhile now) is very helpful on the phone. At one point, I learned to work on their original AFDs (pneumatic or electric) units without even calling them for help...

Franke? Well, I had a few managers ready to wheel those out to the dumpster after their warranty expired and they were getting eaten up with repair costs.
I had several stores that lost the left-hand power supply and board (right-hand side when standing behind unit) several times before I discovered that a blob of frozen line condensation from the poorly insulated suction line ABOVE those components - from the top-mounted condenser - would melt off at some point and run water down onto those components.
I called Franke about that and they said if the units were placed under a window or near a heat source, that was the cause of their problem. In other words, no fault attributed to their design(@%#&!?) Anyway, I had a solution for that problem if those stores would approve another repair, but they said "NO" and would just replace the units altogether.
Since I'm no longer servicing McD's, I haven't seen anything newer from Franke.

Next item on the hit list? That vicious-looking, "gotta-have-'cause-we-only-got-one" three-phase monstrosity of a toaster - the Antunes UTX ones. I only worked on enough of those to really dislike them...ALLOT!

With that, I leave you with this...