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I have been in the refrigeration trade for 35yrs and am always looking for reasons for defects and failures. My geothermal installs were trouble free till R-410 showed up and I believe this is the case with all manufacturers even if they won't admit it. I'm also calling BS on the formicary acid story, I have truely seen that corrosion in med temp. food service only. This area is primarily heating only so the coil is not subject to much moisture and most of the leaks are shortly out of the box. Maybe someone should try putting some more copper back into the tubing that has been getting thinner by the year.
Thermaltecs

ChaseAir,

Unfortunately, the information you have provided is very vague. Warranty claims are processed and shipped the same day they are received. In regards to your comments about not receiving a labor allowance, as previously stated, we would be very interested to have more information about this. If you will provide more specific information, we will be more than happy to look into your inquiry further. Please feel free to send us a private message if you do not wish to post this information publicly.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

SparkyTheTermite,

We are sorry to hear that you have experienced issues with your WaterFurnace equipment. Could you please provide your model and serial numbers so we may look into your inquiry further? If you do not wish to post this information publicly, please feel free to send us a private message.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Over the years I haven't experienced a comparable failure rate on indoor or out door coils in a strictly commercial settings.

I have several accounts with large chilled water coils and DX coils that are subjected to a variety of chemicals that would, according to the Carrier pdf cause formicary corrosion and a eventual failure of the either chill water or DX copper tubes.

Some of these locations seem to constantly have new spaces being torn down and built back up with every manner of trade inducing their trade specific pollutants back into the common plenum return.

Add to that cleaning crews who throughout the day use products that according to the pdf file could contribute to premature tube failure. Some of these Dx and Chill water coils are going on 30 years of use old and then some. Throughout these spaces there are typically isolated DX splits installed for computer rooms, conference areas or any space that requires 24/7 cooling.

It's just not happening. I'm not nor have ever experienced a disproportionate amount of indoor coil refrigerant leaks. The overwhelming majority of leaks are caused by vibration, not by VOMs.

For two years I worked in the Petro-Chemical plants on process equipment and can't imagine a more destructive environment in terms of air pollution.

Sure some coils on the larger air cooled equipment were coated but your average comfort cooling install was a typical out of the box application and I don't remember a rash of coil failures,

Originally Posted by SparkyTheTermite

I must say that the WF warranty has been awesome and I have not had to pay a dime for my repairs. That being said, I am on my 6th coil in 8 years and the only problem has been, is being without a/c or heat until our contractor can get the parts to repair, which has been up to 3 weeks. I must say again WF has stood up to the plate and has done what is right. My question is this, what do I do when the warranty is up in 2 years if the coils continue to go bad. I can in no way afford $1500.00/year repairs.

Just replaced 2 waterfurnace coils, 2 txvs, and a main circuit board...envision split systems. Slow parts delivery, seems like they attempt to avoid actually paying the labor warranty. Coils, coils coils. Our former distributor told me....take it for what It's worth....that wf in his experience = 80% coil failure in Florida. Oh the two systems I fixed today were 2009. It's going to be a long ten years.

Originally Posted by WF_Inc

dship,

We are sorry to hear that you feel this way and appreciate your position. WaterFurnace has been very forthcoming with our stance on Formicary Corrosion. This is an industry wide issue and is not a manufacturing defect; however, because we want to assist our customers, we have continued to cover these air coils under warranty. At this point, we have provided the replacement coil at no charge, as well as a labor allowance to your contractor per the terms and conditions of our published warranty. As you said your contractor did not charge you above and beyond the labor allowance. At this point, we are unsure how we can assist you further.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

I must say that the WF warranty has been awesome and I have not had to pay a dime for my repairs. That being said, I am on my 6th coil in 8 years and the only problem has been, is being without a/c or heat until our contractor can get the parts to repair, which has been up to 3 weeks. I must say again WF has stood up to the plate and has done what is right. My question is this, what do I do when the warranty is up in 2 years if the coils continue to go bad. I can in no way afford $1500.00/year repairs.

dship,

We are sorry to hear that you feel this way and appreciate your position. WaterFurnace has been very forthcoming with our stance on Formicary Corrosion. This is an industry wide issue and is not a manufacturing defect; however, because we want to assist our customers, we have continued to cover these air coils under warranty. At this point, we have provided the replacement coil at no charge, as well as a labor allowance to your contractor per the terms and conditions of our published warranty. As you said your contractor did not charge you above and beyond the labor allowance. At this point, we are unsure how we can assist you further.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

ChaseAir,

We believe you may be confusing Formicary Corrosion with Galvanic Corrosion. Galvanic Corrosion is when a galvanic current is produced by dissimilar metals. Formicary corrosion is caused by organic acids in contact with air and water, and is also much more aggressive.

Some manufacturers have used aluminum coils, and these coils have failed. We have been testing coils for years in order to find something that will prevent Formicary Corrosion. We are confident that our new coating process will prolong the life of our air coils. We continue to test other methods, just as other manufacturers are doing the same.

In regards to the indestructible coil you referenced, we would be interested to know what you are referring to, as we would rather not pay warranty dollars to replace these air coils. We continue to cover these coils under warranty, unlike other manufacturers.

In your post you stated that WaterFurnace does not pay their warranty in North Florida. Could you please be more specific? We are not aware of any claims that have been denied in North Florida.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Originally Posted by dship

WFInc,

Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I find it to be disappointing and insufficient. Whatever the reason for WaterFurnace's coil failure problems, my experience (and the end result) is that your company has manufactured an unreliable HVAC unit. Two blower motors, a cracked and leaking drain pan, and now a coil have all failed in just over four years. However, it is your response to the coil issue that I find most troubling. Whether the issue is blamed on formicary corrosion due to the "air quality" in consumers' homes, poor manufacturing techniques, inadequate coatings, or just plain substandard copper, the fact remains that coil failure in a four year old unit is not normal wear and tear.
In my job as an airline pilot, I fly with different crewmembers almost every time I work. We have hours to just talk about everything under the sun, and our experiences with cars, families, schools, and HOUSES are frequent topics of conversation. In the past, I have always extolled the virtues of geothermal HVAC because of the many benefits it offers. I will continue to do so, but will now have to recommend against purchasing a WaterFurnace unit.
It is unfortunate that WaterFurnace has elected to go with the CYA approach and lose at least my future recommendations. Thankfully, my installer has agreed to take up your slack and cover the repair bill. Was it worth it?

My husband also read the report on coil failures, epecially since we had repeated coil failures and just replaced two six year old systems for $30,000, not counting the thousands we spent to replace the coils last year. We replaced Paradise with Climatemaster.

My husband is a professor of Aerospace Engineering/Mechanical Engineering. His students work all over the world for major employers, including the Air Force, Navy, Army, and NASA.

I asked him what he thought about the coil failure report. He said in his opinion, it was a lame excuse--said the coils should be manufactured to withstand the residential environmental factors since that is where the systems are installed. He said if that were not possible, then every refrigerator in America would fail, since the coils on the fridge serve the same purpose. My fridge is over 15 years old, and still going strong.

But then again, that's only his opinion...

WFInc,

Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I find it to be disappointing and insufficient. Whatever the reason for WaterFurnace's coil failure problems, my experience (and the end result) is that your company has manufactured an unreliable HVAC unit. Two blower motors, a cracked and leaking drain pan, and now a coil have all failed in just over four years. However, it is your response to the coil issue that I find most troubling. Whether the issue is blamed on formicary corrosion due to the "air quality" in consumers' homes, poor manufacturing techniques, inadequate coatings, or just plain substandard copper, the fact remains that coil failure in a four year old unit is not normal wear and tear.
In my job as an airline pilot, I fly with different crewmembers almost every time I work. We have hours to just talk about everything under the sun, and our experiences with cars, families, schools, and HOUSES are frequent topics of conversation. In the past, I have always extolled the virtues of geothermal HVAC because of the many benefits it offers. I will continue to do so, but will now have to recommend against purchasing a WaterFurnace unit.
It is unfortunate that WaterFurnace has elected to go with the CYA approach and lose at least my future recommendations. Thankfully, my installer has agreed to take up your slack and cover the repair bill. Was it worth it?

, i use

The coated coils are epoxy coated.

Tin plated has the look of aluminum on the back of the coil. Carrier STILL has premature cool failure with the tinplating process.

Aluminum seems to be the indestructible coil. Can anyone else witness to this? I have never seen one leak in 10 yrs. I know people who have been in the trade 30 yrs and never seen one leak yet.

If I hear one more manufacturer rep blame "formicary corrosion" for their failure to use a coil that is not susceptible to this type of corrosion, I may hurl.

Ive noticed that climate master has the all aluminum air coil.....they used to have one that was coated.....was that the tin coating? Was all black

formicary corrosion? is that fancy words for volitile organic compounds? or V.O.C.'s

I thought formicary corrosion was caused by manufacturers using copper and aluminum coils when they knew the very well the type of environment the coils would be in.

You know I'm just a layman here, but if you used aluminum coils, you wpuld not have this problem. By the way, tin plating does not solve the problem either.

So, you can make a coil that is indestructible. Yet you continue to use an inferior one, that is cutting edge.

The nice thing about coil failure is that it destroys other components.

Waterfurnace in North Florida does not pay their warranty. We had this experience.

I will never install them again.

dship,

The majority of air coil leaks are the result of an industry wide issue called Formicary Corrosion, which is caused by indoor air quality. Carrier performed a study of Formicary Corrosion, which we have attached for your review.

As a leader in the industry, we started coating our coils, to assist customers in fighting Formicary Corrosion in 2001. We were the first manufacturer to offer this new technology. As of March 1, 2010, we began using the FormiShieldPlus coating process in an effort to prevent Formicary Corrosion. All coils with the FormiShieldPlus are double coated and more durable over a wider range of corrosive agents. WaterFurnace is one of the first manufacturers in the industry to use this process and we feel that it will protect against Formicary Corrosion and prolong the life of the coils.

As for your warranty, the labor allowance for all repairs to our units is a set flat fee. We use industry accepted flat rate times and an average hourly rate for all repairs. The rate we pay does not vary from one contractor to the next. If the amount provided does not cover the contractor’s normal fee, or if it takes longer on a particular repair than the flat fee allows, the contractor makes the decision about whether or not they will pass through the cost to the consumer. The contractor is an independent business man and not under our control. We regularly check our warranty allowance with those of our competitors and find that we consistently cover more items for longer periods and at more generous rates than our competition.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Originally Posted by farbeondriven

You should be happy with CM......30,000 seems like an awful lot to just replace the units or did you have earth loop work done also?

No loops--they were installed by Toano Well and are good. Just an upstairs and a downstairs unit.

We removed 3 geothermals today...the 1985 models outlived the 1995 model by more than ten years....the 1995 had been dead for awhile....leaking water coils with open loop system.
Old style lasted 25 yrs. New style lasted 10-15....both brands were fhp(bosch)

Originally Posted by Williamsburg

We had Bud's Heating remove both units a couple of weeks ago. There were Paradise units, which I understand were made in a Water Furnace plant. They were about 6 years old, and cost us $30,000.

The new units are Climatemaster and have a 10 year warranty. They also cost us $30,000. Our HVAC geothermal has now cost us over $60,000. I asked Buds to return the defective units to Extreme Climates, the people who installed the Paradise units for our builder about 6 years ago. I hope they did indeed take them back to EC. Bud's specifically recommended Climatemaster for the replacement, and not WF.

The Federal Government is giving out tax credits to encourage people to install geothermal, yet no one is tracking the failure rates. I think I will be contacting my congressman to let him know about our personal experiences.

You should be happy with CM......30,000 seems like an awful lot to just replace the units or did you have earth loop work done also?

Coil Failure - Yet Again

We had Bud's Heating remove both units a couple of weeks ago. There were Paradise units, which I understand were made in a Water Furnace plant. They were about 6 years old, and cost us $30,000.

The new units are Climatemaster and have a 10 year warranty. They also cost us $30,000. Our HVAC geothermal has now cost us over $60,000. I asked Buds to return the defective units to Extreme Climates, the people who installed the Paradise units for our builder about 6 years ago. I hope they did indeed take them back to EC. Bud's specifically recommended Climatemaster for the replacement, and not WF.

The Federal Government is giving out tax credits to encourage people to install geothermal, yet no one is tracking the failure rates. I think I will be contacting my congressman to let him know about our personal experiences.

I was told wf coils have an 80% failure rate in Florida. It is many times caused by formicary corrosion. Loops do not cause coil failure. Get the tin plated version..demand it.

WF Inc,

I am a homeowner with a GT unit just over 4 years old. Model:NDV064a111ctr
S/N xe3205. The installer, JK Mechanical (Willow Street, PA) has just informed me that my coil needs replacing and will cost about $1100. This makes at least 5 times in over 4 years that I have had faulty parts replaced or had the installer out to correct faults in the system.
In the Waterfurnace literature, your company seems to pride itself on reliability, a comprehensive warranty, and a "worry-free" experience. My experience with your product has been different. Judging from the contents of this thread, Waterfurnace has issues regarding the coils in its units and I am now facing a hefty repair bill to replace what seems to be a common problem with your product.
Your company should be receiving a call from the service manager at my installer this afternoon. I am requesting that you do the right thing, and cover this repair bill in its entirety.
Thanks for participating in this forum and giving us an opportunity to communicate with Waterfurnace directly.