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Training

I just started off in Geothermal and Solar recently. I too was a bit limited on my local resources. I ended up going to Dallas to work with a company for a couple of weeks to get my feet wet. It was fantastic experience and the volume of WF installs during those two weeks gave me great hands on.

Originally Posted by tedkidd

Good post. I do recall something about running an electrical charge through the lines...

LOL. We should talk sometime. I do respect your ability to keep up with many different aspects of the HVAC profession.

That, and I've got all kinds of nutty ideas for HVAC.

Good post. I do recall something about running an electrical charge through the lines...

Originally Posted by darctangent

By the way, I'm always hearing about acceptable leak rates on water source loops. What's up with that anyway?

This is just more of the same. People talking with closed ears.

Originally Posted by Galen Manapat

I researched a company up north innovating in geo, burying refrigerant lines in the ground. It is particularly great if it touches or is bathed in water. Heat transfer can be very efficient, but there is a very big BUT!

Standard water lines copper lines can corrode and / or develop pinhole leaks at 20 years, depends on quality of copper and what kind of water runs through them. That is why cities try and make city water slightly alkaline.

Traditional hvac copper properly soldered (and it isn't 40% of the time, in my experience) generally does not deteriorate from the inside, often can be reused, but what happens when you run long copper suction, liquid line sets and bury them in an environment that is even slightly acidic? The lines may develop leaks from the outside going in.

Wanna fix it? Wanna guarantee your work and repair developed leaks for free?

There is a reason modern geo drillers and installers use polypropolene or similar stuff. The stuff has to work long term. Best thing to do with a line set is sink it in a large body of water if possible.

Copper is entirely stable in most soils. It comes from the soil and is quite happy there. In the rare instance that the soil is found to have conditions that deplete (corrode) copper it can be protected by means of impressed electrical current. Basically corrosion depletes the copper of ions. If you prevent that from happening corrosion can't take place.

My systems do have a warranty.

modern? are you saying my methods are backwards? antiquated?

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

Originally Posted by tedkidd

I believe they install with some type of leach bag that has to be replaced every so often for that very reason.

With inverter driven load matching air source, and probably soon the same for ground source, it seems this technology will have a hard time staying ahead enough to justify these issues...

I don't think they have TXV's 60 feet down, definitely not going to have electronic valves.

They are keeping it quiet about it but Earthlinked does have a unit running somewhere in France as I understand it. I'm not sure if it's a VFD. I'm thinking it's a more residential friendly variable speed compressor, but I'm guessing.

The current metering setup maintains near zero superheat and subcooling figures in normal operation. how much control do you want?

Originally Posted by Galen Manapat

To the person that thinks all you have to do is buy two jugs of refrigerent. Think about this. We are not using pure refrigerents anymore. We are using blends and azeotropes. That is to say when you use say R410a, it is a combinationof 4 different gasses and they leak out aout different rates.

The official recommendation is that "top off" is risky. Complete replacement of the refrigerent is recommended because these new gasses are NOT pure refrigerants. They are supposed to be weighed in.

That would be me. Mr. Two Jugs.

I was referring to the relative difference in installation cost. of course there's more to it than that. I didn't get my mechanical license in a box of crakerjacks. As to what you are referencing, I'm not sure.

First, I don't recall saying that I use 410a. wait a minute. I guess I did, but that was intended more as theoretical. OK, Let's go with that.

You said that that R-410a has four constituent parts. I don't get that. Even if you break down 410a to it's atomic elements you only get three. Carbon, Hydrogen and Fluorine. If you do it as most properly trained and educated techs would, you get R-32( difluoromethane or CH2F2) and R-125 (pentafluoroethane CHF2CF3) So that's two fairly stable compounds, not Four.

Do you know what the glide on R-410a is? It's pretty damn small. About .1 degree Kelvin or .2 degree Fahrenheit at room temperature just off the top of my head. Frankly none of that makes a difference to me when the job gets done right. When my brazes are correct there is really no concern for me.

By the way, I'm always hearing about acceptable leak rates on water source loops. What's up with that anyway?

Originally Posted by can2man

Interesting. I have heard of this but have never seen a system. What size of copper line do you use and how many feet per ton? Say on a horizontal system. What are the cop"s? How do you work out your charge - based on length of pipe in the ground?

To the person that thinks all you have to do is buy two jugs of refrigerent. Think about this. We are not using pure refrigerents anymore. We are using blends and azeotropes. That is to say when you use say R410a, it is a combinationof 4 different gasses and they leak out aout different rates.

The official recommendation is that "top off" is risky. Complete replacement of the refrigerent is recommended because these new gasses are NOT pure refrigerants. They are supposed to be weighed in.

Originally Posted by Galen Manapat

Standard water lines copper lines can corrode and / or develop pinhole leaks at 20 years, depends on quality of copper and what kind of water runs through them. That is why cities try and make city water slightly alkaline.

Wanna fix it? Wanna guarantee your work and repair developed leaks for free?

I believe they install with some type of leach bag that has to be replaced every so often for that very reason.

With inverter driven load matching air source, and probably soon the same for ground source, it seems this technology will have a hard time staying ahead enough to justify these issues...

I don't think they have TXV's 60 feet down, definitely not going to have electronic valves.

Dangers of using direct copper in the ground

Originally Posted by darctangent

yes, yes, and yes.

I researched a company up north innovating in geo, burying refrigerant lines in the ground. It is particularly great if it touches or is bathed in water. Heat transfer can be very efficient, but there is a very big BUT!

Standard water lines copper lines can corrode and / or develop pinhole leaks at 20 years, depends on quality of copper and what kind of water runs through them. That is why cities try and make city water slightly alkaline.

Traditional hvac copper properly soldered (and it isn't 40% of the time, in my experience) generally does not deteriorate from the inside, often can be reused, but what happens when you run long copper suction, liquid line sets and bury them in an environment that is even slightly acidic? The lines may develop leaks from the outside going in.

Wanna fix it? Wanna guarantee your work and repair developed leaks for free?

There is a reason modern geo drillers and installers use polypropolene or similar stuff. The stuff has to work long term. Best thing to do with a line set is sink it in a large body of water if possible.

That is a good Idea. Thanks.

heebe, you heat with oil or propane? Any relatives that do? Might be the place to start. Geo is a no-brainer if you don't have natural gas, and getting your feet wet on a house you have unlimited access to will help accelerate your learning curve and keep mistakes from being so expensive.

Water Furnace says that they will train me on Installation. I would be surprised if a competitor would train me to compete with them.

They will reduce power bills by a lot, but if you have no background in them, it would be better to talk with a competitor to see if you could go on some installs and service calls before you get your feet wet.

I just got done reading this thread and I am now having second thoughts. I have a meeting with Water Furnace on Monday to become a dealer here in MN. and I don't know if this is even worth pursuing. I want to become a green contractor and sell things like this. But not if it is not going to make me any money or be a huge pita. Can any of you tell me if its worth trying or is it just a waste of my time, Thanks.

Originally Posted by durussel78

I worked for a company that sold waterfurnace and I think it was called international units. They got something back in arounds 1500 tax credit. The systems worked great once tuned in and would have a pay back of 100% in 11 years. But WOW the up front cost, did I say WOW, we did pond, horizontal earth closed loop, vertical well closed loop, and pump and dump.
Here is what the fancy brochures leave out:

Your yard / landscaping will need a complete overhaul once the heavy equipment is out, so if you can aford a GEO chances are you will at least have to replace about 10 - 15 grand in landscaping.
Well drilling company - about 2000 a hole 4-6 in at 150 feet down.
Dive team for pond loop - about 120 an hour.
Heavy equipment rental is around 1600 a week for a loader and backhoe.
Glycol - lots of the alien slime.
A mile of sheet metal for your air handling units.
Lots and lots of time for tuning.
2 in diameter pipes punching through your basement wall (real fun to work with especially when they are cold).
The actual water to air units weigh a lot so heavy some of the bigger members of your crew handy.
Low end Geo for a small home was about 30-40,000 dollars at 2500-4000 ft squared and about 65-120,000 dollars at 5000-12000 ft squared homes

Just wanted to let you know some of the un-glorious things about GEO, it is a great idea, but not in the north for small companies trying to profit. Just a headache, schools make it seem great (mine did), but unless you are out trying to sell people this stuff and trying to put it in then I would not waste my time with my nose in a book trying to memorize calculations and practicing design principals. You need to find a local that does it, volunteer to help on a system and get your own perspective, I know after getting out of the HVACR design program at school and actually doing it I was left with a sour taste.

But IGSHPA is the source for all GEO.

have you read this thread or not?

IF YOU LIVE IN MICHIGAN-its not worth the trouble

I worked for a company that sold waterfurnace and I think it was called international units. They got something back in arounds 1500 tax credit. The systems worked great once tuned in and would have a pay back of 100% in 11 years. But WOW the up front cost, did I say WOW, we did pond, horizontal earth closed loop, vertical well closed loop, and pump and dump.
Here is what the fancy brochures leave out:

Your yard / landscaping will need a complete overhaul once the heavy equipment is out, so if you can aford a GEO chances are you will at least have to replace about 10 - 15 grand in landscaping.
Well drilling company - about 2000 a hole 4-6 in at 150 feet down.
Dive team for pond loop - about 120 an hour.
Heavy equipment rental is around 1600 a week for a loader and backhoe.
Glycol - lots of the alien slime.
A mile of sheet metal for your air handling units.
Lots and lots of time for tuning.
2 in diameter pipes punching through your basement wall (real fun to work with especially when they are cold).
The actual water to air units weigh a lot so heavy some of the bigger members of your crew handy.
Low end Geo for a small home was about 30-40,000 dollars at 2500-4000 ft squared and about 65-120,000 dollars at 5000-12000 ft squared homes

Just wanted to let you know some of the un-glorious things about GEO, it is a great idea, but not in the north for small companies trying to profit. Just a headache, schools make it seem great (mine did), but unless you are out trying to sell people this stuff and trying to put it in then I would not waste my time with my nose in a book trying to memorize calculations and practicing design principals. You need to find a local that does it, volunteer to help on a system and get your own perspective, I know after getting out of the HVACR design program at school and actually doing it I was left with a sour taste.

But IGSHPA is the source for all GEO.

I'm no better at avoiding getting sucked in. Key is attempt to just give good information, particularly in response to ignorant and argumentative posts. Read Beenthere's stuff, he's usually really good at this (and some of the other guys).

To some extent this is like kindergarten, everybody making noise wanting attention, but much is just noise without substance. People reading quickly sort through a lot of chaff to find good seeds. Only so much can stick (why fill the grey up with garbage, right?). The childish posts tend to blow away like deleting junk mail.

Just thinking a lot of your stuff has seeds. Don't let others suck you into posting chaff.

I've got to get ready for an install tomorrow so this will be a little brief, but I'll try to cover some territory here.

Originally Posted by can2man

Interesting. I have heard of this but have never seen a system. What size of copper line do you use and how many feet per ton? Say on a horizontal system. What are the cop"s? How do you work out your charge - based on length of pipe in the ground?

It depends on the application, but 3/8 & 1/2 or 5/8 are typical. When it comes to length, again system design will vary, but with vertical and diagonal bore holes you are talking about (1)100ft bore per ton with 100ft down, 100ft up so 200ft of tubing per ton, plus the copper to get back to the heat pump. I have never had a system that was designed for horizontal loops, but as I recall there are similar figures for that as well. COPs vary dependent on ground temp and soil conditions, but about 3 to 4.5. Nominal charge is about 7 lbs/ per ton on forced air with Domestic hot water, less on hydronic only systems. Charge is a little hard to explain, but very very easy to do. It relates to the metering system which is proprietary to Eathlinked. Suffice to say the metering system is like the old school refrigerators with a float arm in a reservoir of refrigerant. It sounds odd by modern thinking, but it's actually very efficient.- that's just part of it though- it's actually quite hard to explain in print only.

Originally Posted by tedkidd

Darctangent, are you being argumentative or trying to educate?

If you are trying to educate it would be great if your posts had a bit more substance. For example, you could state that a direct exchange system uses 4lb + 4lb per ton, or a discussion about enhanced thermal grout/silica mixes and what you mean about your ability to use "better grout".

Without that detail you might simply appear argumentative. That's my



I believe you have 70 ft cores with 1-2 per ton. Not really set up for trenches yet, but they are experimenting with it in Tennessee, along with using the foundation perimeter on new homes. COP's are available at ahri I believe.

Not trying to argue at all. If you read back to where this all started, I was simply pointing out that there is more to geothermal/ground source than water based systems. Then I got multiple responses essentially denying what I was saying. If there was an argument, it was about the requirement of using water in ground source systems. If you read back, I pointed out that I thought there were advantages and disadvantages to water source (as apposed to DX) Neither technology is perfect.

On grout, bentonite based grout has a really nasty habit of stratifying in the bore hole causing the grout to fall away from the tubing and therefore poor thermal conductivity. My last two jobs I've used a cementitious grout called "supergrout"

Another point- as I referenced earlier, horizontal loops do exist, and in some areas are the preferred method of install, but that in not the case in Colorado.

All of this is dependant on the design laid out by the manufacturer, in this case Eathlinked.

Originally Posted by tedkidd

Darctangent, are you being argumentative or trying to educate?

If you are trying to educate it would be great if your posts had a bit more substance. For example, you could state that a direct exchange system uses 4lb + 4lb per ton, or a discussion about enhanced thermal grout/silica mixes and what you mean about your ability to use "better grout".

Without that detail you might simply appear argumentative. That's my



I believe you have 70 ft cores with 1-2 per ton. Not really set up for trenches yet, but they are experimenting with it in Tennessee, along with using the foundation perimeter on new homes. COP's are available at ahri I believe.

Thank you

Originally Posted by darctangent

I'll take the cost of 2 jugs of refrigerant over the cost of drilling 3-5 times as much. I can also use better grout for better heat transfer.

Darctangent, are you being argumentative or trying to educate?

If you are trying to educate it would be great if your posts had a bit more substance. For example, you could state that a direct exchange system uses 4lb + 4lb per ton, or a discussion about enhanced thermal grout/silica mixes and what you mean about your ability to use "better grout".

Without that detail you might simply appear argumentative. That's my

Originally Posted by can2man

Interesting. I have heard of this but have never seen a system. What size of copper line do you use and how many feet per ton? Say on a horizontal system. What are the cop"s? How do you work out your charge - based on length of pipe in the ground?

I believe you have 70 ft cores with 1-2 per ton. Not really set up for trenches yet, but they are experimenting with it in Tennessee, along with using the foundation perimeter on new homes. COP's are available at ahri I believe.

Originally Posted by darctangent

I'll take the cost of 2 jugs of refrigerant over the cost of drilling 3-5 times as much. I can also use better grout for better heat transfer.

Interesting. I have heard of this but have never seen a system. What size of copper line do you use and how many feet per ton? Say on a horizontal system. What are the cop"s? How do you work out your charge - based on length of pipe in the ground?

Originally Posted by tedkidd

:-)

Bring a big recovery tank!

I'll take the cost of 2 jugs of refrigerant over the cost of drilling 3-5 times as much. I can also use better grout for better heat transfer.