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Originally Posted by tridiumtech

Timebuilder -

For starters, see the attached exam - from my Staefa days. It was used to pre-qualify techs and programming engineers. It's from the "DOS days", but lots of core HVAC knowledge that doesn't change. At the end is a test on electro-mechanical wiring. If you can't hack that, you're going to have issues with "controls". There's a reason they call it a 'wiresheet' in Tridium AX.

OK I remember my KLIMO controllers and my Texas Instruments "data terminal" with acoustic coupler! Speaking of DOS days... lost art... good memories starting in the trade. It has treated me well and with a head on your shoulders you will always have a job!

Originally Posted by tridiumtech

The "dream job" ended in a layoff (17% of the startup company got the 'pink slip'), so I'm getting back into controls on the service side (AX Tridium based). Lots of doors open up if your AX certified and have decent HVAC knowledge.

I wouldn't expect that you'd be looking for a job for long. Of course I do not know the job market outside my own area, but around here a certified and experienced Jace programmer is in demand by quite a few folks.

Originally Posted by tridiumtech

I'll be happy to pass along my personal Niagara Workbench Guide - been working on it for 5 yrs. now (material from all my courses + Niagara User Guides + experience).

It is likely that once some folks read this, that several are going to want to ask ... so I'll just jump in now and ask ...

Is your personal guide something you'd be willing to share?

Myself, I'm not a Jace specialist, nor certified. In fact, turned down an offer by the company for whom I work to send me through the course to get certified. I knew that if I did get certified, they'd plunk my butt at a desk and I'd be doing very little else. Last time I checked we had 4 certified Jace guys, and we get enough Jace work so they do virtually nothing else. Had a 5th one, but he recently took a walk on us. He wanted to work a regular 40 hour week, company wanted him to work more than that on a regular basis. So he looked around and found a job with another company who guaranteed him a regular 40 hour work week ... and tossed in a very NICE pay increase on top of that.

However, I and some of my peers, who like myself are not Jace specialists, do get involved in working with Jaces in a minor way. We have licensed software (for a couple different "branded" variations), and have attended formal in-house training. Since the way we work, a Jace specialist does the original configuration, setup, programming, etc. But at the end of a project, we (I and my peers) who do final testing and commissioning for whole project (front end and field controllers, devices, and so forth), are expected to go through the Jace screens and verify everything is correct, correct things like improperly linked points, fix typos, add any minor items forgotten, and so forth. Plus from time to time an existing installation gets a minor add or change, and company would as soon that we field guys make the minor changes to the Jaces rather than bothering the Jace specialists with such things.

So I'd be interested in anything you'd be willing to share. I already have pretty much all the regular manuals, can download any that I do not have from Niagara-Central, or Schneider, etc. But am always looking for more info. Yah never know what little tidbit might come in handy. If I have info, might read it now and not remember it a year from now when I need that piece of info ... but WILL remember I have the info, and it'll be on my hard drive, or on my backup drive I use to archive things. Which I keep organized in such a way that I can pretty quickly find whatever I'm looking for.

If you'd rather not share, that's okay. No hard feelings.

Learning Controls

Timebuilder -

Your comment of putting 'lifting the compressor by a rope' in the rear view mirror made me smile. Don't laugh, but I got my CEM (certif. of Energy Mgt) to get away from "climbing a ladder" (always a VAV to look at). Took more Tridium courses then got an office job doing AX programming + chiller energy savings - dream job, but after a year sitting in a chair I long to get back on my feet (+ a few visits to the chiropractor). The "dream job" ended in a layoff (17% of the startup company got the 'pink slip'), so I'm getting back into controls on the service side (AX Tridium based). Lots of doors open up if your AX certified and have decent HVAC knowledge.

For starters, see the attached exam - from my Staefa days. It was used to pre-qualify techs and programming engineers. It's from the "DOS days", but lots of core HVAC knowledge that doesn't change. At the end is a test on electro-mechanical wiring. If you can't hack that, you're going to have issues with "controls". There's a reason they call it a 'wiresheet' in Tridium AX.

After that and your still motivated, and if you want to learn Tridium AX and to get your certificate ($2K + expenses - not cheap), I'll be happy to pass along my personal Niagara Workbench Guide - been working on it for 5 yrs. now (material from all my courses + Niagara User Guides + experience).

For me I'm learning alot by review all these HVAC-Talk threads. Won't have time when I get the new job...

Just an update to this thread... I have started writing a downloadable guide to those looking to get a job in the Building Automation or HVAC Controls industry. The working title is "THE Building Automation Career Blueprint".

Though this guide will not be the thing that teaches you the detailed stuff you need to know like how to wire controllers or edit programming code, it will lay out all the things you will need to research and prepare for before sending out your resume and appearing for interviews.

This will be a definitive guide to figuring out where you fit in the industry by looking at your strengths and weaknesses and deciding what areas you are better suited for. It will also help define your salary needs and goals and direct you on the best way to go to obtain both.

There will be quotes, snippets and stories from owners, engineeers and other controls professionals in the industry giving their inside thoughts on what you need to do to break in to the industry.

I will be sure to update the forums once I have the finished product completed. This will not be a cheezy notepad document so I foresee it being a few months before it is ready.

...and after that project is completed I hope to move on to what this topic is all about... I want to create an online training program for Building Automation and HVAC Controls. But that is probably a year off from now. Christmas 2014?

IMO in order to be a good HVAC controls technician you must be equally balanced, being both a very good mechanic as well as a creative programmer . That said understanding a piece of equipment is knowing its optimal sequence of operation. After that the logic dictates the code. The control manufacture dictates the way the logic is written and your exposure to different systems enhances your skills.

IMO in order to be a good HVAC controls technician you must be equally balanced, being both a very good mechanic as well as a creative programmer . That said understanding a piece of equipment is knowing its optimal sequence of operation. After that the logic dictates the code. The control manufacture dictates the way the logic is written and your exposure to different systems enhances your skills.

Originally Posted by Loose Cranks

"How would you prepare, and educate yourself for controls?"

Start drinking excessively on a daily basis???

Naw, my drinking days are behind me.

"How would you prepare, and educate yourself for controls?"

Start drinking excessively on a daily basis???

Originally Posted by cntrlartist

Dowadudda, did you work under Pete?

I already answered. But. Yeagh. That dude knows his stuff. By all accounts, likely the best at the reefer controls game. I admired what he has done in his career, and his teachings had a tremendous impact on me.

Originally Posted by TheControlsFreak

Yup sure did... I am now way up North in Ohio... Columbus.

ok. well cool. I enjoy your site. I liked the videos.

No. But I learned a lot due to Pete.

Originally Posted by Dowadudda

Did you move from San Antone?

Yup sure did... I am now way up North in Ohio... Columbus.

Dowadudda, did you work under Pete?

Did you move from San Antone?

The Internet and YouTube have been my source of education for many years. I am self taught on everything I know about Computers, IT/Networking, IS/Databases, Web programming etc.

But I am the type that learns from doing, I don't do well with standard type schooling. There are, however, many that need more formal education with classes, books and teachers. I unfortunately sucked in that department and barely made it out of High School.

For those that don't have the money, time or desire to take any kind of classes... just search the internet. Google is your friend.

I picked up the CCENT Exam guide as a preliminary step toward becoming network savvy.

If I can get that behind me, I'll do step two and get the CCNA with the second test.

And yes, resumes are out there.....

Originally Posted by Dowadudda

I wonder if any of you guys agree with me that, getting into the HVAC or R control world, is all about understanding yourself... How committed are you to pushing yourself.

As most here. I have migrated into the controls side of refrigeration and now walking into the HVAC side because I am a technician, a mechanic is what I like to be referred to as. I use the term migration. Is the opportunities not there for everyone? It has been my experience that if your in the HVAC/R world as a technician, in commercial, your opportunity awaits.

I would say a majority make a stupid choice to limit their potential. Limit their career. Not investing the time into their skills. Some of the cheapest, least expensive ways to enter into the discipline is to get thrown at it, or raise your hand with no fear. Then spend the next countless years learning, learning learning.

It's you. It's all on you. Some people... just don't have the kind of brain to develop in this trade. Back to you. If you have a tendency not to be honest with yourself and not take an honest assessment of what makes you you, and it ends up your not capable of this stuff, your gonna waste money and time otherwise wisely invested making you the best you, what ever that is.

Paraphrased.^

OT

I can get into the need to invest in yourself and blah blah blah, but in my opinion the problem stems from where this trade is recruiting its workforce from.

I have seen some outstanding people enter this trade, and I am proud to say I've taught them, but they are a minority that makes up maybe 15% of my students. These guys will go far and should make very good money when they reach their full potential. Another 15% have the potential, but are contempt with working their 40 hours and dicking off the rest of the time; I'd say that maybe 5% of this group will have success. Another 30% will probably do ok, most likely in light commercial and residential and the remaining 40% have no business owning tools. It's not that this group is a bunch of degenerates, but that this group lacks any combination of mental capacity and motivation needed to go anywhere in, well most things.

Originally Posted by Dowadudda

It's you. It's all on you. it's what makes you you. are you capable? can you commit? can you learn in mid career? Are you willing to take a deep investment on your shoulders.

Are you capable is very important, on top of having a sturdy willingness. Having the experiencing of teaching HVACR basics to new students with which was very satisfying. I also finally figured out, that some people, no matter how awesome they are as people, just don't have the kind of brain to develop in this trade. Back to you. If you have a tendency not to be honest with yourself and not take an honest assesment of what makes you you, and it ends up your not capable of this stuff, your gonna waste money and time otherwise wisely invested making you the best you, what ever that is.

Throughout my life, I have been forced to assess those traits you mentioned. And, I can say that the guy you described is me. I've done it whenever life has required me. New opportunity? I'm on it.

But you could probably tell that about me, already.

About the home automation thing... Anybody try those FUJI Electric plc's that automation direct sells?

Another economy line looks to be made by eaton, which I saw is carried by omega instruments. BTW bud, omega has an awesome line of catalogs that are also instructional.

I love the hvac controls world, but being an electrician, I am being sucked more into the I&C end of the spectrum. And that's kind of scary, because HF acid and flammable liquids scare the crap out of me. I'd rather help a fat lady keep warm anyday.

Originally Posted by Dowadudda

I also finally figured out, that some people, no matter how awesome they are as people, just don't have the kind of brain to develop in this trade. Back to you. If you have a tendency not to be honest with yourself and not take an honest assesment of what makes you you, and it ends up your not capable of this stuff, your gonna waste money and time otherwise wisely invested making you the best you, what ever that is.

That is one of the most frustrating things, both for the "new guy" and the vet. So many want in controls but it is not for most. It is for those that will spend hours of their own time learning and tinkering and even then they may not be able to do it. The picture above of the pile-o-stuff is a sample of what it takes. Many folks here have that pile in one form or another, i know I do. It sucks to move a great person out of controls but great people are not fit to do every thing. Tough to think ahead and behind, inside and outside of the box, be able to come up with a new solution to an old problem or reuse an old solution for a new problem. Controls is the most out of control thing that operates flawlessly that there is and if you can figure that out you may be right for it.