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Originally Posted by garyed

I get what you're saying & agree, IMO there is no violation using recovered R22 for purging in a closed loop. The problem with that is only virgin R22 is recommended for purging. Recovered gas can have oils & contaminates mixed in so you're no better off than just using plain nitro in that case anyways.

I think it is for simplification and eliminate one of the variables for warranty claims.
OEM spec is for known quality. There are others that meet the quality but by simply stating the exact item they reduced all the questions and such that would get called in.

You'll find just about everything recommending nothing but OEM parts or OEM specified. Sometimes it matters, sometimes not.

Reclaimed to ARI-700 is perfectly legal for use as refrigerant but manufacturers still only recommend virgin.

Hook up the vapor port of raw recovered cylinder through a "CPS molecular modulator" or another such coil and vapor port on an empty clean cylinder.

It's not really much work. Hook up two tanks back to back and just let it be overnight.

Warm the dirty refrigerant with a heat blanket, and cool the coil in water. Leave it alone for a while. It'll be slow so you can do it overnight. If you do it fast with a recovery machine, the oily refrigerant can foam and ingest oil into clean tank.

In this process, R22 is distilled out from the recovered bottle leaving behind non-volatile oil and sediments. The "catch" cylinder obviously needs to be squeaky clean. A recycling machine would further circulate this product through filter to catch moisture.

This is basically all recycling machines do. In fact, this is how they do reclamation but with more elaborate filtration. As always, the enemy is contamination with other refrigerant and other volatile stuff like flush.

Automotive machines are usually recovery recyclers while the HVAC ones are recovery only. Obviously there's much greater allowance for size and weight for something that stays in the shop. Also, in auto world, you can charge recycled refrigerant into anyone's car.

If the contamination in pipe was oil and things stick in oil ,liquid R22 washes oil.

If it was glycol coolant residues, flushing with air will get rid of most. Following it with clean water will remove all.

Same idea. The only difference is that R22 boils below ambient, so there's no chance of accidentally left behind solvent.

Flushing out a dirty line set with dirty refigerant makes no sense to me either.
We're getting into the "I wish I was rocket scientist" part of the discussion now, this is not that complicated.

Originally Posted by ICanHas

What I'm saying is, if you've got some HCFC-22 you would normally just send it back, I believe you can circulate it through systems regardless of ownership as a cleaning fluid. It will obvious get dirty with use, so you will have to re-distill it at some point by vapor recovering it into another recovery tank. Since the re-purposing of recovered HCFC-22 isn't as a refrigerant, I don't believe reclaiming to ARI-700 standards is applicable. You're essentially cleaning pipes with closed-cycle solvent cleaning system.

I get what you're saying & agree, IMO there is no violation using recovered R22 for purging in a closed loop. The problem with that is only virgin R22 is recommended for purging. Recovered gas can have oils & contaminates mixed in so you're no better off than just using plain nitro in that case anyways.

Originally Posted by garyed

That's an interesting point. Whether the gas is considered reclaimed or recovered after being used for purging a system is a matter of interpretation. I definitely would not call it virgin refrigerant any more so in my mind its recovered & not legally usable.

What I'm saying is, if you've got some HCFC-22 you would normally just send it back, I believe you can circulate it through systems regardless of ownership as a cleaning fluid. It will obvious get dirty with use, so you will have to re-distill it at some point by vapor recovering it into another recovery tank. Since the re-purposing of recovered HCFC-22 isn't as a refrigerant, I don't believe reclaiming to ARI-700 standards is applicable. You're essentially cleaning pipes with closed-cycle solvent cleaning system.

Originally Posted by ICanHas

It is illegal to charge a system with recovered refrigerant unless the refrigerant originated from the same owner, but there is no specific language saying you can not HCFC-22 formerly used for refrigerant for closed loop cleaning.

In closed loop system, the solvent (HCFC-22 in this case) is recycled and the only loss is through connecting/disconnecting.

That's an interesting point. Whether the gas is considered reclaimed or recovered after being used for purging a system is a matter of interpretation. I definitely would not call it virgin refrigerant any more so in my mind its recovered & not legally usable. I know you could use it in the same owner's system but in a residential change out that's highly unlikely to happen. I don't really remember the way the law is worded so I might google it & see.

Originally Posted by garyed

Here's a twister.
Whether you illegally flush with R-22 & blow it to the atmosphere or do it legally closed loop you're still going to waste it all unless you illegally reuse what you legally used.

It is illegal to charge a system with recovered refrigerant unless the refrigerant originated from the same owner, but there is no specific language saying you can not HCFC-22 formerly used for refrigerant for closed loop cleaning.

In closed loop system, the solvent (HCFC-22 in this case) is recycled and the only loss is through connecting/disconnecting.

Originally Posted by ICanHas

It shouldn't be really relevant, at least its not to the point where de minimis loss makes it any costlier than anything else. Closed loop liquid refrigerant flush is a feature found on many automotive A/C service equipment.

Open loop flushing using refrigerant is illegal anyways. ............................

Here's a twister.
Whether you illegally flush with R-22 & blow it to the atmosphere or do it legally closed loop you're still going to waste it all unless you illegally reuse what you legally used.

its goona take some time to see what happens to units with flush circ

When the coils get dirty and/or cond fan quits - that is when the discharge temps are goona start causing flush components to break down and form acids.

Originally Posted by garyed

R22 is the best to clean the lines with but with the price of R22 now it doesn't seem very practical.

It shouldn't be really relevant, at least its not to the point where de minimis loss makes it any costlier than anything else. Closed loop liquid refrigerant flush is a feature found on many automotive A/C service equipment.

Open loop flushing using refrigerant is illegal anyways.

As far as the instructions given by companies, the tech, you, are the most expensive expense. Every second you're there, the company is expending on your payroll.

What you'd do as a one man job is different from. If you do things your own way and it takes you an hour more you're not actually losing money unless there's a direct opportunity cost (i.e. had to turn another job down) but if he's paid by the company by the hour, its an hour of labor that they have to pay you.

Got about 15 systems right now that every time I hook up to service I can smell straight flush.

I don't see the reason for any argument here. The fact is most of us are doing what we have been taught , told, researched or experienced what works the best. I don't know about the rest here but I've only been installing 410a systems for about 4 years. That's hardly enough time to get any long term data on the best line cleaning procedures. I've done it both ways but stopped using the flush in the early goings. I haven't had any problems yet that I know of so I'll stick with the plain nitro purge until I find any definitive evidence that it is not sufficient. It looks like even the manufacturers don't all agree what is the best way to clean an old line set. The majority of them seem to think R22 is the best to clean the lines with but with the price of R22 now it doesn't seem very practical. In another 5 or 10 years we'll have a lot more data to compare but for now I say do whatever you're comfortable with as long as you don't leave anything in the lines that wasn't there before.

Thanks Jim. Good to see some actual literature on the subject. The company I work for tells us to flush with only nitro (and vacuum of course) so this makes me feel much better about it. How do you get those bulletins?

Parrafen wax is wax that was used for motor winding insulation
It get dissolve by meniral oil

I don't use any chemical to flush the system
Just plain nitro.
Flush is bad news for your system

I have to agree with jimj

The only reason they wanted only a small amount mineral oil
Was the parrafen wax
That was dissolve on older semi hermetic compressor.
The wax is not messible with poly oil
So the minute it hit a colder spot like txv
It will separate and plug it up.

They stop using this wax in mid 80s.


Even if you don't purge with nitro it should be okay
As long as its not a burn out.

You are doing more harm if u use rx11
And can't get all out

"I've been doing it this way for a long time..."
doesn't mean you've been doing it THE ONLY RIGHT WAY though.Experience is of value but not a gospel.

Supposedly glass bottles are better for water bottle because it doesn't leach anything. You could chose to use glass water bottle for on the field and on the beach. It's safe as long as its not broken. Here the unquestionable risk exceeds questionable benefits, so unless you're a veggie organic hippie freak the prudent choice is plastic bottle.

For a one man show working on flat rate you have a lot of discretion in what you do.
If you're a business owner where the expense of techs affect your bottom line, procedures that take considerable payable tech time with questionable merit (return on investment) shouldn't be done just because its always been done and works good based on anecdotal evidence.

If it adds an hour to each install but merits are moot, that's one hour of payroll expense.

I say do what you feel comfortable with .although you can go wrong with replacing the line set

Originally Posted by Danae12

Well seems I met the 1st troll here on hvac-talk... Flushing the lineset has turned into a pissing match over who is more over the top... Good luck on preaching your beleif's on what is ok and right in the field.. Not to flush or to flush whatever, If your best is just a nitro purge so be it, if it is a r11 flush with a nitro purge so be it... If it is nothing then so be it.. As far as this gorilla bull crap your trying to smear all over this guys question so be it.. You do not sound professional you sound like someone trying to say not cleaning linesets is ok, when its not and is not doing your best for your customer client etc.. If it was my house i would flush it, just as I would if I had control over it for my customers..

Go to the labs, the experiments in your controlled rooms and make excuses for not doing the best for your customers to relieve your guilt, I don't care, and I am done trying to reason with ignorance.....

I am just glad people like you have proven to me I am doing the best for my clients and customers thank you so much...

for proving to me I am one of the best...

Based on that last post, if I was judging only on professionalism...

We flush, but not with rx11. We use a nitro/cleaning mixture, similar (but greater volumes) to a acid cleanup injector.
Seems like it works so far. Haven't had any real compressor issues. The nitro really sprays that stuff out of there. I doubt anything remains when correctly done.
But, thats in the rarity that we can't replace a lineset.

In reality though, I'd rather hit them with nitro alone.
As mentioned earlier, there's only 2 things that belong in a system. Refrigerant and oil.

keep in mind, if the crap hits the fan with flushing linesets (5 years down the road it eats up windings), I doubt your manufacturer will stand behind those warranty claims. Especially if they've said not to use flushing agents.

Originally Posted by Danae12

Go to the labs, the experiments in your controlled rooms and make excuses for not doing the best for your customers to relieve your guilt, I don't care, and I am done trying to reason with ignorance.....

I am just glad people like you have proven to me I am doing the best for my clients and customers thank you so much...

for proving to me I am one of the best...

If you can support ANY of your arguments with any kind of written information by any manufactures ( other than the people that sell flush) I would love to see it. I unlike you have an open mind.

X2 jimj

You are in the minority of "us in the field" danae

You seem to be the one being the most defensively. Jimj has been around and seen most of it all and is well respected among

You will do well to listen and let your mind be opened to what others say.

Well seems I met the 1st troll here on hvac-talk... Flushing the lineset has turned into a pissing match over who is more over the top... Good luck on preaching your beleif's on what is ok and right in the field.. Not to flush or to flush whatever, If your best is just a nitro purge so be it, if it is a r11 flush with a nitro purge so be it... If it is nothing then so be it.. As far as this gorilla bull crap your trying to smear all over this guys question so be it.. You do not sound professional you sound like someone trying to say not cleaning linesets is ok, when its not and is not doing your best for your customer client etc.. If it was my house i would flush it, just as I would if I had control over it for my customers..

Go to the labs, the experiments in your controlled rooms and make excuses for not doing the best for your customers to relieve your guilt, I don't care, and I am done trying to reason with ignorance.....

I am just glad people like you have proven to me I am doing the best for my clients and customers thank you so much...

for proving to me I am one of the best...