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Originally Posted by MechanicallyInclined

I just found out the Local which I'm a travel card in, doesn't participate in the National pension. They have an HRA contribution which has to do with H&W, but is not the actual H&W. They have a Defined Benefit Plan that takes the place of the National pension. They also have a Defined Contribution Plan. Also this same Local isn't part of any Pipe Trades District Council. Is anybody in a similar Local??

My local operates that way, we are not part of the national pension plan. 3 years ago our retirement plan was paying $145 per vested year, that was for the pension only, the annuity adds another chunk of $$$$ on top,brothers went home making $5k/month fully retired at 55. now our plan is down to $90 per vested year plus annuity.
Wonder what national UA plan is paying, last I heard was $45 per year.

I just found out the Local which I'm a travel card in, doesn't participate in the National pension. They have an HRA contribution which has to do with H&W, but is not the actual H&W. They have a Defined Benefit Plan that takes the place of the National pension. They also have a Defined Contribution Plan. Also this same Local isn't part of any Pipe Trades District Council. Is anybody in a similar Local??

All I know is,when I see the first check I am going to kiss the ground!

Local 597 never had a MES designation. No Formal Apprenticeship for HVAC only construction.They used the "C" card (appliance Journeyman) and "B" card (Metal Trades Journeyman for classification. Training at night Contractor decided when you could move up unless you had about 10 years and a sympathetic BA. Good thing was same benifits were paid in as BTJ and same pension credits.C and B not recognized by Chicago Building Trades so if you were on a prevailing wage job you got "A" BTJ scale. 2005 a Full time HVAC instructor who served a formal construction Apprenticeship but workin Service his whole Career was assigned task of starting Apprenticeship. Instructor went to (420)Philly and (601) Milwaukee talked to 638 New York and recommended same pay structure and no MES bull**** card. Things went well Contractors not happy because they could not hold guys back any more. They also refused to write up bad reports JATC could dismiss poor performing Apprentices. Just short time them or let them be another Contractors headache. Instructor tried to phase out C & B card program but Contractors still wanted a place to land their Sons/Nephews/customers kid who could not pass Apprenticeship Apptitude test and other requirements. 2011 a desision was made to have HVAC Apprentices come out at the B card scale Construction Apprentices came out at BTJ A card scale. HVAC Instructor called bull**** on that and quit.
When announced at Union Meeting not a whimper because out of 400 members at that meeting maybe 10 were Service. U.A. HVAC/R Members its your own fault go to the meetings. How can anyone justify
screwing a 2" gas linetogether with a partner is worth a higher pay scale than repairing a roof top by your self? Two classifications of Pipe Fitter Apprentice & Journeyman thats all there should be. That Instructor? Me; Bill Wren card #1086380

Local 597 never had a MES designation. No Formal Apprenticeship for HVAC only construction.They used the "C" card (appliance Journeyman) and "B" card (Metal Trades Journeyman for classification. Training at night Contractor decided when you could move up unless you had about 10 years and a sympathetic BA. Good thing was same benifits were paid in as BTJ and same pension credits.C and B not recognized by Chicago Building Trades so if you were on a prevailing wage job you got "A" BTJ scale. 2005 a Full time HVAC instructor who served a formal construction Apprenticeship but workin Service his whole Career was assigned task of starting Apprenticeship. Instructor went to (420)Philly and (601) Milwaukee talked to 638 New York and recommended same pay structure and no MES bull**** card. Things went well Contractors not happy because they could not hold guys back any more. They also refused to write up bad reports JATC could dismiss poor performing Apprentices. Just short time them or let them be another Contractors headache. Instructor tried to phase out C & B card program but Contractors still wanted a place to land their Sons/Nephews/customers kid who could not pass Apprenticeship Apptitude test and other requirements. 2011 a desision was made to have HVAC Apprentices come out at the B card scale Construction Apprentices came out at BTJ A card scale. HVAC Instructor called bull**** on that and quit.
When announced at Union Meeting not a whimper because out of 400 members at that meeting maybe 10 were Service. U.A. HVAC/R Members its your own fault go to the meetings. How can anyone justify
screwing a 2" gas linetogether with a partner is worth a higher pay scale than repairing a roof top by your self? Two classifications of Pipe Fitter Apprentice & Journeyman thats all there should be. That Instructor? Me; Bill Wren card #1086380

this is not accurate.
not the correct forum but I have all those numbers. let's just say that is inaccurate.

Originally Posted by valdelocc

Found out the international pension sucks big time, the pay off is somewhere around $45 per vested year, according to the source the whole plan is bankrupted and the UA sent a letter last year to all MES telling them not to expect anything out their pension plan.

unlikely that it is bankrupt. it is probably underfunded, as are most due to the economy these days. what tihs means is that it has to plan to get the reserves back up. once the economy starts moving again, it will be just fine, like most pension plans. There are certain guidleines with respect to funding levels mandated by erisa. This is true of all multiemployer defined benefit plans.

Found out the international pension sucks big time, the pay off is somewhere around $45 per vested year, according to the source the whole plan is bankrupted and the UA sent a letter last year to all MES telling them not to expect anything out their pension plan.

BTJ/MESJ gate same rate and bennies. MESJ i considered a high tonnage guy. BTJ is pipefitter, mes is low tonnage guy. mes is lower rate, but gets trucks etc. MESJ typically gets trucks and better rate, but fewer positions.

Are all three of those Local classifications? In my Local, BTJ-RefrigerationFitter and HVACR STJare mirrored in wage, benefits and fringes. There's no MESJ in the local agreement. Here's a bit of confusion, the MEServiceman is both a Local and National classification. MESS is usually what they refer to when speaking of the National one. The Local MEServiceman has the same benefits and fringes as the ST-Journeyman, his wage is scaled down to 80%. The National MEServiceman has scaled down wages, benefits and fringes. In my Local Union, it's better to be a Local MES than a National MES.

BTJ/MESJ and MES

Originally Posted by flange

it doesnt work like that. We have two seperate rates/benefits packages. .

What are the two packages? RefrigerationFitters and HVACR Service?

it doesnt work like that. We have two seperate rates/benefits packages. .

We'll call the UA Local #555 for this example. We'll say Local Union #555 is PipeFitters and HVACR only. A Building Trades RefrigerationFitter Journeyman, an HVACR Service Journeyman and a Mechanical Equipment Service Journeyman should all be at the same scale, benefits and fringes. The "RefrigerationFitter" is under the Local Building Trades agreement, the "HVACR Service Tech" is under the Local HVACR Service agreement and the "MESJ" is under a National agreement of some kind. Am I making sense to any of you?

Originally Posted by maxster

638B Metel Trade (HVAC Service) NYC pension contribution... is $4.50 per hour worked.some companies pay hours for the watch coverage 10-15hrs times techs rate..union aced that for contributions.....just worked hours on watch OT..mean while they pay 2 as in "TWO" 638A fitters 8hrs minimum(double their rate) for any OT after their exhausting 7 hour day10AM...LUNCH...3PM with $11.10 per hour into the pension

Based on the amount of bud can and joint clips I found in the ceilings on some floors of 7 world, I cannot disagree. Although I'm sure the electricians helped with both to a smaller extent.

We have had two distinct apprenticeships since long before the national agreemnt for service.

The terminology is all messed up. UA HVACR Service under the National agreements is Mechanical Equipment Service. It's the classification of Serviceman that everybody starts getting confused at. HVACR Service Journeyman should be gettin the mirrored package whether Local or National agreement. Most Locals package will have the HVACR Service Journeyman package equal to their Building Trades Fitters.

Originally Posted by flange

This is another one of those adult diaper situations, depends. Depending upon how your particular local is structured is what drives it. Here, we have BTJ which is fitters, MESJ which is hightonnage service guys, and MES which is low tonnage guys. There used to be very clear defining lines, but over the years, they have become grey areas. Around here, many BTJ guys (like myself) did high tonnage service as well as pipefitting. Other MESJ guys only do high tonnage service. MES guys did service up to a certain tonnage or boiler size for example, and install of splits up to fifty tons. Those lines are now all effed up, as MESJ is becoming extinct, as are BTJ guys who do service. Confused? me too. I think we have about seven different rates within our local. Some by equipment size and tonnage, others geographic.

Due ot this, I make a point to only hire BTJ or MESJ guys, since its all the same rate and package. Rather than have one guy who is limited to say package rooftops, I get a guy who can work on anything and pay for it.

Here MES are mostly non-union guys that got a job with a signatory shop before joining the union.

here our benefits package for BTJ only.



WAGES

$31.00 Base rate/per hour

FOREMAN RATES:
7% over base rate (2.17) Foreman rate for any job 3-7 members
11% over base rate (3.41) Foreman rate for any job 8-14 members
17% over base rate (5.27) General Foreman rate
APPRENTICE WAGES:

1st year 40% of journeymen wages ($12.40)
2nd year 50% of journeymen wages ($15.50)
3rd year 59% of journeymen wages ($18.29)
4th year 66% of journeymen wages ($20.46)
5th year 75% of journeymen wages ($23.25)

FRINGE BENEFITS: Contributions per hour

PENSION $8.23 Journeyman
$8.23 starting at 2nd year Apprentice
INSURANCE $6.93 Journeyman
$3.47 Apprentices
ANNUITY FUND $2.00 Journeyman
$1.00 starting at 5th year Apprentice
JATC FUND $ .75 Journeyman
IAP $1.63 Journeyman
______
TOTAL Benefit $19.54

PACKAGE: $ 50.54

This is another one of those adult diaper situations, depends. Depending upon how your particular local is structured is what drives it. Here, we have BTJ which is fitters, MESJ which is hightonnage service guys, and MES which is low tonnage guys. There used to be very clear defining lines, but over the years, they have become grey areas. Around here, many BTJ guys (like myself) did high tonnage service as well as pipefitting. Other MESJ guys only do high tonnage service. MES guys did service up to a certain tonnage or boiler size for example, and install of splits up to fifty tons. Those lines are now all effed up, as MESJ is becoming extinct, as are BTJ guys who do service. Confused? me too. I think we have about seven different rates within our local. Some by equipment size and tonnage, others geographic.

Due ot this, I make a point to only hire BTJ or MESJ guys, since its all the same rate and package. Rather than have one guy who is limited to say package rooftops, I get a guy who can work on anything and pay for it.