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Hey mold inspector
Do you have an email address Id like to send you some info
Thanks
booka66@comcast.net

Ya, the chemical interaction thing bothers me but the majority of my customers are doing the "green" thing and have mostly ecofriendly cleaners anyway. I sell those too so I have brought it up with every customer since your results....the last two can't have stuff like that anyway cuz cleaners that are harsh give them headaches...I am keeping that as a focus when doing sales...I don't want to be responsible for hurting anyone but I do still think the device is useful if used withing certain parameters. Like for instance I did an inspection of this beautiful house that had a must basement but very minor surface contamination. The owner has been sick for over a year and she put the Fresh Air in her living room but closed the door to her bedroom. She said when she woke up she was still sick but after a couple hours of being in the room the FA was she felt better. They have 2 separate HVAC units so she is going with 2 9" ductworks, a FA and possible one for her classroom and now two other teachers who have the same problem want one too. So I have to weigh it against people who genuinely find that these units help destroy whatever is causing their problem. It is hard to tell someone that has been sick for a year that something doesn't work when they are no longer sick. I am watching this one closely cuz I think her problem is more related to offgassing of cabinets, furniture and everything in the house is laquered too....so we shall see but she is very happy right now.

Moldi
It sounds like the EQ distributor has an Air Advice. It would be interesting to see the results.

Keep in mind that the pine scented cleaner represents just one of many terpenes that would react in the same way. Anything with a citrus scent also usually contains a high percentage of terpenes (d-limonene). The point is there are many substances that people use in their houses or on their person such as cleaners, air fresheners, perfumes, deodorant, after shave, etc. that have a scent, are VOC's and can react. What the experiments show is that one just does not know the outcome. It is almost like playing Russian Roulette with indoor air quality.

Glad to hear your business is developing. Keep it up.

Been doing alot of hospital work here. Prepping for some major projects coming up. Got a hospital with 17 50 to 100 ton air handlers we are fixing to start on. And the CIAQ board has been keeping us busy putting together reports and such. We are doing a presentation in October in DC for them at their scheduled meeting.

I've been exploring other areas of IAQ and mold stuff...eased up on the EQ stuff but every time I almost believe something negative other than the pine sol thing that I still don't understand the VOC to particle thing but I tell people not to use pine sol or airfresheners now...not like you need it after RCI anyway... I just had another jumpin up and down happy customer cuz of how well a unit worked so I can't help but draw off their enthusiasm for the product...I have been staying clear of the network marketing aspect. Had a lot of mold stuff last month...this month has been pretty dead though. It floods at lest 2x a yr in nh so there will be another major work season in a few months.

Where you been moldi I missed ya.

Jim,

I spoke with an EQ MGR out in Cali and she said she has a guy in her downline that uses some type of VOC device. He is an HVAC engineer and I guess he plugs the unit in and leaves it for a week or two and it uploads info to his computer about the voc content in the house and reads it on graph form. I guess he has been doing this with the fresh air and the proof is on paper. She hasn't talked to him since April but is going to try to contact him to get him to call me so I can get some of his results. Apparrently it does extremely well.

He would be one who can give you all the details since he is an engineer and everything I know about HVAC (which isn't much) I learned here.

Ya, I agree Breatheasy, the testing was bull****, I will give you that. I am dissapointed at the lack of information in the testing and will read over the white paper from ksu. Aparently the dept of agriculture felt the testing was adequit since they talk about RCI on their site too in an interview with Dr Marsden. There are a lot of people that are in high positions that believe in the technology. I don't know if it happened but I am pretty sure that walter reis hospital installed DWx's after their recent bout with bad iaq. I also think that since(if) the HEPA HVAC units are as good at particle removal, I think the two would make the ultimate system. I will warn customers to be careful with cleaning products but since everyone is starting to go green, at least most of the people that consider this technology, so products that cause problems wont be around much longer anyway. I think you will see all those harmful cleaners (which might I add are poisonus without the Fresh Air) made illegal or phased out. Lysol will be the first to go since it is such a toxic chemical. Anything that you can spray near a child that makes them write backwards should not be marketed as a cleaner that is great at getting rid of germs from kids when it is just as effective at getting rid of the kids.

I am basining the majority of my oppinion on experience but I am taking the SARS testing and effectiveness at face value since it was on the news and it is common sense that h2o2 kills microbes so I don't doubt does kill stuff, I question it's effectiveness up to 3000sq ft. Same thing with the Norwalk epidemic that died off as soon as PCO cells were installed on cruiselines that had been having problems. Not to mention every steak you have ever eaten was packaged in a plant with that air technology to prevent surface contamination. I think people in the food industry would be the best people to back up these products.The ductworx is a 9inch cell and the FA is a 6" so there would be more oxidation but I am sure the results would be similar. I know that a lot of EQ dealers take petri dishes and leave them open near a supply vent and then do the same 3-5 days after putting a fresh air in the house and the reduction is 80-90% in the size and ammount of colonies on the dish. I know that isn't scientifically perfect but the effectiveness is obvious in that case

Testing was done with the room Fresh Air not the Ductworx. However, if you look at the other testing both by the U of C and "in-house" at RGF they also used the room type product. I presume the PCO part of the device is the same system. In all probability they would produce the same types of results.

Moldi, take another look at the test protocol on the "proof" of these products in reducing microbials. In the case of K State you have 24 hour exposure on stainless steal surfaces. In the case of the U of C you have exposure in a test chamber the size of a closet. Neither say what settings the devices were set on. Neither represents what would happen in a home or commercial building.

Your experience might be positive. But I don't look at any of the data from these tests as proof of effectiveness.

He did the Fresh Air. All that was found is that it sends the particle count through the roof when you add certain chemicals like pine sol. As far as the antimicrobial stuff goes you can ask anyone who has had problems and owns one, Though as I stated elsewhere it doesn't do much to lipstick mold. It has been proven to kill or significantly reduce to above 95% on the following:

SARS, Norwalk Virus, MRSE and VRE Strep, Stachybotrys, E Coli, S Aureus, Bacillus spp, pseudonomonis, L. Monocytegenes, Candida Albicans, amd I personally have seen it kill aspergillus, cladosporium, and penicillium problems in relatives houses who bought Fresh Air...I wish it would kill this pink crap though.


If you want more info on the Ductworx you can look at RGF's PHI cell since the Matrixs are made of the same compound and the same TiO2, copper, silver and rhodium paint as RCI, the same 100nm-300nm bulb (notice the ductworx light says RGF on it) Also looking up stuff on Air Source helps too even though that is a pathetic phi cell compared to the rest it still seems to have an extremely large ammount of satisfied customers. RGF makes that one too. The only significant difference with RCI and PHI is the exposure space on the matrix. A 14" RCI has 10x the surface space of the 14" phi, so basically RCI just does what phi does but faster since it creates a lot more oxidisers.

Breatheasy, are you testing a Fresh Air portable room unit or the FA ductwx product designed for the AC duct system??

I'd certainly be interested in test results on the Ductwx product.

ok

The reason why one would use Pine Sol to test is that it is commonly used in indoor environments. Other terpenes are anything with a lemon or citrus scent such as cleaners, baby wipes, furniture polish, etc.. Similar reactions have been reported with linalool alcohol - which is found in perfumes, after shave, sunscreen, etc. etc.. You could also find similar reactions with tobacco smoke as we have seen in some studies with ozone.

What would one prove by testing with acetone and tolulene? I guess this would tell us something about air quality when someone is removing their nail polish or thinning paint - but not much else.

Nothing wrong with the particle counter. These instantaneous reactions with terpenes have been shown in hundreds of experiments with the same types of results. VOC's actually can coagulate to become particles.

Once again the point is not to prove what is going on. The point is that these reactions are creating lots of stuff that is unexpected, unanticipated and undesirable. There is a crying need for further research in this area.

Gen,

So could it be that RCI messes up a particle meter then? If the VOC's can't be particles than that would really mean that RCI messes up a particle meter and nothing more, correct?

agreed, thanks

Lots of questions.
We did run the test in both purifier and RCI mode only. The chemical reactions took place in both. In fact the RCI or PCO only mode maxed out the particle counter at over 9,999,999 particles over 0.3 microns per cubic foot.

No, I am not sure what the particles are. If you read the studies, the best guess would be that they are a combination of various aldehydes, ketones, acids and other byproducts. But that is not my job to determine what they are. It would seem that a manufacturer of a product that sells it to the public would have that responsibility. The point is there are alot of reactions taking place with some nasty results.

The spike in results was created by the fact we turned the Fresh Air off. If we had left it on, the reactions would have continued at a high level until the terpenes were completely eaten up.

The RCI mode only had no effect on reducing particles. It would not have a neutralizing effect.

I realize that you are trying to understand what is going on with these reactions and that is good. No offense taken. It is good to see you are not so tied to one product. There are lots more opportunities in this field if you are not.

We have been trying to find other data on PCO/terpene reactions. I have not found any. Research definitely needs to be done. But I will say Genesis has explained some of the reasons why the Ecoquest device could have problems that other PCO products do not have.

What this highlights to me are deficiencies of the Grinshpun/U of C study. These people are professionals. Why they did not do some research into this chemical reaction issue with VOC's I do not know.

moldi we have never used Turpentine or pine sol as a testing base. If pine sol was used in an air quality test, there are undetermined elements in pine sol that isn't listed to the public. http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/prod...ndcleaner1.pdf
Known componants of there MSDS sheet
pine oil (turpentine) 8 to 10 %
Alkylacloho ethoxylates 3 to 7 %
Isopropyl alcohol 1 to 5 %
sodium petroleum sulfonate 1 to 5 %
Most air quality labs use toluene or acatone as there base.
And I don't believe VOCs could be considered a particulate because it is in the gasous stage not a solid.

Since you know that the ozone would cause that reaction, wouldn't it make sense to run the test with just RCI and the purifier off. You could do one set with and one set without. Also, so you don't know what the particles are? Just assuming they are from the terepene? I noticed that the spike only lasted a couple hours...so could you draw the conclusion that the ozone is causing the problem and the RCI is neutralizing it? I am trying to pick your brain for different scenarios because I want to know exactly what it does and doesn't do and then I will take it to the mgrs. I already forwarded your data to a couple people above me and am waiting for a response. IAQA is just like NORMI and MICRO right? I have looked at the Mold Inspection stuff and plan to do a program through them and MICRO so I will have certifications in 4 different IAQ organizations. I am impressed at the HEPA's particle reduction but I am also curious at how if the particle count was a VOC, how does the filter remove it if it isn't a VOC filter. I thought they were fo dry particles? I am not saying any of this to be a dick, just I want to know. Since I am not taking the stance that it is my product versus yours we can just stick to the info, I just don't want you taking this the wrong way since I have become defensive/agressive in the past. What does Genesis have to say about PCO and terepene? Have they done similar tests on their product? The reason I ask is since they are a PCO and we are a photo plasma catalytic oxidation device, his creates no ozone. So that may be a test for you to try. Also I would be curious about the FA Everest too since it is low oxidation with no ozone generator. Thanks for the info.

try


<put it in your profile>

I didn't get the email Like I said I will mention the issues with cleaners to future customers. I think as people get into more green technology, like most of the people who would be interested in this would be more likely to not have the types of harmful chemicals like lysol and pine sol.

I can say I was wrong gracefully about the pine sol however I still am having a hard time logically understanding your response on ionization. when an environment is lacking say positive ions, introducing them would take time to where they would all pair up. It seems they would accumulate and if there are left over positives it would cling in an instant to a negative introduced...I don't know. It would be cool if you could paint 50 spores and let them go in a house and run it fopr 24hrs and see the number that are caught....verses particles dropped. The ionization issue seems to be a lack of info on it but solar ionization in the mountains seems to be a good demonstration. Anyway thanks.