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Originally Posted by ReferYankee

This is a very valid point, our company was a Amstd dealer for years exclusively, they dropped amstd due to coil leaks.... But whenever you only deal with one product, of course you will see more problems with it than other brands, since goodman owns the market, of course we see "more" problems but if we took the time to analyze the failure rates correctly, I doubt that would be trur

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I'm going out on my second reversing valve swap on Monday this year for the Goodman stuff we sold a few years ago. I have been able to un-stick a couple more... I have been having other problems with the goodman outdoor units as well. Because of this, I don't sell them anymore.

Originally Posted by RoBoTeq

You are correct, Goodman is not on par with other brands. Goodman has the largest market share of residential HVAC equipment in North America by a healthy margin, so no way is this brand "on par".

Like it or not, Goodman has changed the way manufacturer's of HVAC equipment does business. Like it or not, Goodman has succeeded at a faster rate than any other brand manufacturer. Now that Goodman is owned by Daikin, Daikin took over the number one spot in the world for HVAC products....move over Carrier.

Instead of being so petty and claiming that Goodman is not as good as other brands just because Goodman is beating the pants off of other brands in sales, it would be a lot better to look at what Goodman is doing and learn from it. Goodman is sold and installed by the majority of large companies that are primarily dealers of other brands. In other words, there are Carrier dealers and Trane dealers and Lennox dealers and York dealers...and so on and so on, but just about all of them are also Goodman dealers.

If some companies can install Goodman equipment and never have issues, which is absolutely the case, and other companies have lots of problems with Goodman systems....well, do the math.

This is a very valid point, our company was a Amstd dealer for years exclusively, they dropped amstd due to coil leaks.... But whenever you only deal with one product, of course you will see more problems with it than other brands, since goodman owns the market, of course we see "more" problems but if we took the time to analyze the failure rates correctly, I doubt that would be trur

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Originally Posted by Mr toon

We just started pushing a few goodman units no problems so far, design is not as service friendly as our Rheem units but easier to work on than Bryant's. and definitely cheaper and in this economy a customer often goes with lowest bid at least in our area

In my area, Rheem and Ruud along with entry level systems of all brands are competitive with Goodman. On large, multi-system jobs, Lennox has beat out Goodman on price.

Also, user friendly usually means what we are used to. Once you get used to any brand of equipment, it becomes the most user friendly...to you.

We just started pushing a few goodman units no problems so far, design is not as service friendly as our Rheem units but easier to work on than Bryant's. and definitely cheaper and in this economy a customer often goes with lowest bid at least in our area

Goodman sure does use some cheesy fan blades that can be troublesome. Having worked for Goodman in the past, I can say from seeing it with my own eyes that Goodman's engineers would design a really nice unit (I've had many of the prototypes) and then the Goodman bean counters would find substitute parts with the same basic specs but definitely not as quality oriented. Maybe with Daikin owning Goodman now, they will stop doing this as much.

This is not a Goodman or no Goodman thread for other than those who let their emotions over brand loyalty get in the way of common sense. I have seen really bad designs and quality issues in every brand out there, without exception.

If technicians turned contractor would just learn a little more how to properly sell themselves, they would never have to worry about competition because there is no competition for us as individuals. There are very successful HVAC companies nationwide that sell Goodman systems for a much higher margin, at a much higher total job cost than what many Trane, Carrier, York or Lennox dealers get for the same system with the same general features. It would be more worth the time of those who blame everything but themselves for their failings to be more like those companies and stop whining about equipment brand.

Even though I have not been contracting for 15 years, my customers rarely even knew what brand of equipment I was installing. I sold systems with specific features and benefits and promoted my company, not some brand of equipment. If you are selling on equipment brand, and you are competing with another company selling on that same equipment brand, the only thing you can do to get the job is to lower your price.

The Goodman noise issue is a byproduct of price. Trane, and other major brands for that matter, use different style fan blades. Because of this, the over all sound level is lower. Goodman makes good products, as good as anyone else, but the low price comes with less options and cheaper parts. That sort of equipment has its place, we have sold some Goodman units in the past and have had no issues, but that were installed in cases where price was of paramount consideration. Any contractor that refuses to sell a lower priced piece of equipment when necessary will miss out on a lot of sales. In my opinion, and take that is it is, Goodman is on the same level as other similarly priced brands, and that is to say, the same quality as some of the big name brands lower end units.

On a side note, I had a feeling this would degenerate into a Goodman or no Goodman debate.

Originally Posted by RoBoTeq

You are correct, Goodman is not on par with other brands. Goodman has the largest market share of residential HVAC equipment in North America by a healthy margin, so no way is this brand "on par".

Like it or not, Goodman has changed the way manufacturer's of HVAC equipment does business. Like it or not, Goodman has succeeded at a faster rate than any other brand manufacturer. Now that Goodman is owned by Daikin, Daikin took over the number one spot in the world for HVAC products....move over Carrier.

Instead of being so petty and claiming that Goodman is not as good as other brands just because Goodman is beating the pants off of other brands in sales, it would be a lot better to look at what Goodman is doing and learn from it. Goodman is sold and installed by the majority of large companies that are primarily dealers of other brands. In other words, there are Carrier dealers and Trane dealers and Lennox dealers and York dealers...and so on and so on, but just about all of them are also Goodman dealers.

If some companies can install Goodman equipment and never have issues, which is absolutely the case, and other companies have lots of problems with Goodman systems....well, do the math.

Goodman is outselling everyone else for 3 reasons. Price is low, profit margin high, and they will sell to anyone. I have never had problems installing goodman where it is a right fit. We don't have reliability issues with systems we install. The problem I have with goodman is noise, nothing else. When you have a brand new goodman installed across the street to the Trane your installing, and you hear the goodman over the Trane, it is obvious which is Superior when it comes to noise.

Originally Posted by toocoolforschool

A reputable contractor would be on the top of the list. There is a local supply house here that will sell Goodman to anyone who knows enough to slip the counter guys a "tip".

So, your claim is that contractors that install Goodman products are not reputable because they install Goodman products? That would be saying that you are calling the majority of very good contractors inferior, as well as myself and all of the Clockwork companies who are so successful with their installations of Goodman equipment.

At what point do you naysayers of other brands get down from your high horses and realize that you are just upset because you are not as successful as some companies are that install Goodman and other brands you so wrongly bad mouth?

I've been installing Goodman/janitrol systems since 1985. Just replaced one I put in in 1986. During that 27 year life span. I replaced the cond. motor, blower motor, 4 contactors and a gas valve. It was one of my friends parents unit. It still amazes me that I never had to put 1 ounce of 22 in that system.

They have had ups and downs, but no worse than other brands. The past few years Goodman has produced some good equipment. Everybody has had evap. Coil issues, capacitor issues, and the like.

Originally Posted by RoBoTeq

I have been part of the decision to switch from Rheem/Ruud HVAC products to Allied Air's Armstrong and Concord brands, 80% interchangeable with Lennox products. Nothing more wrong with the Rheem/Ruud products than any others. Allied, being a fairly new Lennox International company, is just more accomodating with helping a predominantly wet head company changing to an HVAC mentality.

I am surprised.... I thought you were promoting Goodman/Amana again.

I moved from Rheem/Ruud to AlliedAir (in my case Air-Ease and Ducane; same products as you know) a couple of years ago.

Have you been down to West Columbia and Orangeburg SC? I was impressed with the factory... a little less with corporate. Still better than Rheem/Ruud Milledgville, Trane Tyler, or Goodman Houston.

Allied has been good about supporting the dealers (HVAC co's) through CC Dickson in my area... all in all they are a good 'bread and butter' line.

Originally Posted by RoBoTeq

What exactly do your customer's demand that other brands of HVAC can provide that Goodman systems cannot? For that matter, what brand provides anything that all other brands cannot provide?

A reputable contractor would be on the top of the list. There is a local supply house here that will sell Goodman to anyone who knows enough to slip the counter guys a "tip".

Originally Posted by HVAC/Stud

I think you should not blame the brand, blame the install. I think all brands are about the same. There is not a brand that hasn't had leak problems.
I you do your homework and do AHRI Manual J,D and S, all units will perform as rated.

Most brands have top end units and low end models. Goodman is a good unit, it has bad rep because they sale to anyone. How many who buy Goodman will follow AHRI guidelines.

My 2 cent.

STUD

This is a good point, usually when I see Goodman it is hacked in and in section 8 housing.

Originally Posted by Mr toon

I've found 12 leaky evap coils this month so far during spring prev maintanance calls running outta 410 changed 6 coils this week lol

Chinese drywall is coming to mind or another voc.

Originally Posted by garyed

I agree 100%.
Nothing made today is going to last like something built 25 years ago.
All the brands have had leaking coil problems & other faulty foreign made components.
As for Goodman, I always get asked "isn't a Trane a better unit.
My response is "the only thing Trane has over Goodman is a better paint job".

The paint is a good start.

Originally Posted by FREEZYBREEZE

I had a long discussion with my Rheem dealer today a lot of questions got answered. Indeed there did seem to be more leaky indoor coils appear after the switch to Mexico production. I got a very detailed explanation why they leaked but i wont go into it here. Changes have been made and the improved coils hit the airhandlers Mid-April 2011. The X13 Motors with surge protection should start being installed very soon. Now i guess its a waiting game to see if the Post-April coils leak. I like Rheem, I'm very familiar with Rheem. Gotta say bye bye to Goodman.

All I have to say is it took you this long to figure out? I know we don't like brand bashing here but the proof is in the putting isn't it?

Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech

Not sure if you meant to say this... however IMO we just repeated that installation is more important than brand.

Exactly. And it has not always been bad installers at bad companies. I have seen several instances of service managers and techs simply not installing or setting up a brand of equipment they don't want to use properly so that they have issues. When I get involved, the common chant is; "We don't have to do that with Blah-Blah brand."

You get out of HVAC equipment what you put into it.

Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech

Yeah, I realize ARP is tame compared to the dedicated lefties. IMO most of the 'questionable folks' at ARP are nothing more than narcissistic ego's looking for sport... They really do not have a cause... other than attention.

Glad to hear you have a challenge to push... us guys do our best when we have a ladder to climb. Sounds like you have it going! If I may ask... what line of equipment... does it come from Houston TX...

I have been part of the decision to switch from Rheem/Ruud HVAC products to Allied Air's Armstrong and Concord brands, 80% interchangeable with Lennox products. Nothing more wrong with the Rheem/Ruud products than any others. Allied, being a fairly new Lennox International company, is just more accomodating with helping a predominantly wet head company changing to an HVAC mentality.

Originally Posted by RoBoTeq

If some companies can install Goodman equipment and never have issues, which is absolutely the case, and other companies have lots of problems with Goodman systems....well, do the math.

Not sure if you meant to say this... however IMO we just repeated that installation is more important than brand.

Originally Posted by RoBoTeq

My personal company consulting is now a sideline. I took an interesting job with a 60 year old, very successful plumbing/heating distributor that needed help with a 7 year HVAC division. In less than a year, the company is beginning to be taken seriously as an HVAC distributor. I've been extremely busy between the two jobs, and I've been doing a lot of environmental issues posting on Linkedin. You think the leftist whacks are bad here.....?

Yeah, I realize ARP is tame compared to the dedicated lefties. IMO most of the 'questionable folks' at ARP are nothing more than narcissistic ego's looking for sport... They really do not have a cause... other than attention.

Glad to hear you have a challenge to push... us guys do our best when we have a ladder to climb. Sounds like you have it going! If I may ask... what line of equipment... does it come from Houston TX...

Originally Posted by 3DFanatic

I may be new to this forum but I am not new to HVAC. Goodman has improved drastically and I will give them credit for that, but to say they are on par with say Trane or Lennox is laughable IMO. Goodman has it's place, yes many install it in high end homes but it doesn't belong IMO. I have ripped out more goodman that was under 8 years old than any other brand. Reason is.... my customers wanted equipment that didn't wake them every time it comes on.

It is apparent we will not agree, and that is fine. I say we agree to disagree. You have the last word.....

You are correct, Goodman is not on par with other brands. Goodman has the largest market share of residential HVAC equipment in North America by a healthy margin, so no way is this brand "on par".

Like it or not, Goodman has changed the way manufacturer's of HVAC equipment does business. Like it or not, Goodman has succeeded at a faster rate than any other brand manufacturer. Now that Goodman is owned by Daikin, Daikin took over the number one spot in the world for HVAC products....move over Carrier.

Instead of being so petty and claiming that Goodman is not as good as other brands just because Goodman is beating the pants off of other brands in sales, it would be a lot better to look at what Goodman is doing and learn from it. Goodman is sold and installed by the majority of large companies that are primarily dealers of other brands. In other words, there are Carrier dealers and Trane dealers and Lennox dealers and York dealers...and so on and so on, but just about all of them are also Goodman dealers.

If some companies can install Goodman equipment and never have issues, which is absolutely the case, and other companies have lots of problems with Goodman systems....well, do the math.