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I used to work for a large 110 truck service company back east before moving to Cal.
They have tested every known additive on the market. Almost all have failed. Most of them have sulpher and or chorines in them. Some are Clean.
There is one product they settled on. It is polarized but it is not an additive. It is an intermettalic compound that is injected the same way as additives. They used MAXR100 for the last 7 years and have not had one unit fail. The biggest benefits I have seen from using the product was in refrigeration systems. We would pull and oil sample and found most units were not serviced properly.
It is true that oil changes do help dramatically. But how many techs change the oil or even recommend it?
We would add Maxr100 and see the difference in about two weeks. It depends on the age of the units. We have installed Maxr100 in over 700 units to date.
I have been in Cal. for two years now and I have finally convinced my employer to add it to our service.
A lot of you guys say if it works then the mans. would be tripping over themselves to get at it. The truth is the mans. do not want the units to last beyond warranty dates.
It kills thier profit margins. Just like they most will not install hard starts. Why? It will lenghten the life of the compressor.
Technology is not limited to just electronics. It is huge in chemicals. For all of you guys say that the stuff is snake oil, I challenge you to try the Maxr100. No I do not sell it if that is what you are thinking. I just know it outperforms all the others hands down.
As I am writing this the Clark County School district is trying to come up with the funding for Maxr100 installation. They did a year long test on the stuff with some of the nations leading HVAC Engineers. Fuller instruments provided $6,000.00 worth of instrumentation documenting all of the REAL world testing. Ohio Dept. of transportation did a 18 month test of 4 units. New and old. They are now installing it.
In conclusion, I know there are snake oil salesmen out there. But there are also some good honest companies that do provide reliable stable product. Maxr100 is one of them. It is made by transbio energy in Ohio. Look them up. I know if you see it work you would be surprised. Long term results tell all and they have been around for 11 plus years. We have used them for seven years at my last employer and 18 months here in California and never a unit failed.

The problem with PROA's is not that they are effective, it is the long term damage that is done to the system when the sulfur becomes sulfuric acid or the chlorine becomes hydrochloric acid. PROA's cannot stand alone the have to be constantly modified to not damage a system. The next generation of these type additives will be synthetic and willi not change or damage a system over the long haul. Also find out if they are covered by insurance not to damage a system and what kind of warrantee do they carry for system failure due to use of product. When that is offered there will be greater interest. I have heard of only one company that is willing to do that, and they have a major top tier Insurance company backing there product to the tune of up to $4M per system, in which the product is installed and registered. Now that we can live with!!!

PROA's

Originally Posted by HMV Chopper

Hey lucky131 if your still out there.I have reed alot about PROA and have seen compress shield in action with the same out come!

But historical evidence shows PROA to do more harm than good.

I have tested iceCOLD which is the non-toxic version (not PROA) with better results.

www.usrefrigerationtech.com

The problem with PROA's is not that they are effective, it is the long term damage that is done to the system when the sulfur becomes sulfuric acid or the chlorine becomes hydrochloric acid. PROA's cannot stand alone the have to be constantly modified to not damage a system. The next generation of these type additives will be synthetic and willi not change or damage a system over the long haul. Also find out if they are covered by insurance not to damage a system and what kind of warrantee do they carry for system failure due to use of product. When that is offered there will be greater interest. I have heard of only one company that is willing to do that, and they have a major top tier Insurance company backing there product to the tune of up to $4M per system, in which the product is installed and registered. Now that we can live with!!!

The only products I fully trust are CfC's, HCFC's, Sporlan filters, acid neutralizers and mineral oil ..I've seen those run 40 years without a compressor failure. Any thing else Alykabenzlene,POE,410A,134A,additives for power
savings all are "gingerbread" that has been forced on our industry by politicians, Dupont, and the New World Green Religion!
These products are untested, add thousands to maintinace costs, and breakdown often!

As was noted in post #2 of this thread (from nearly 4 years ago...) if this additive were as good as it's promoters claim all major manufacturers would be breaking down their doors to get to it. To date, I still don't see that happening.

It's pointless to attempt to sell oil additives which are not approved by the major compressor manufacturers to those of us who must live with these systems long after the initial glow fades away. The snake oil analogy is not far off from the truth here.

It's a standard saying around here (HVAC-Talk): Nothing belongs in a refrigeration system other than refrigerant and oil. The one caveat to that is if somebody like Copeland says some additive is OK, then we may be more likely to accept it over time. But don't hold your breath....we are at best a skeptical bunch.

This stuff can be marketed to the end users 'til the cows come home and they are the ones who come to us to do the work, but don't expect us to stand behind it. We're not going to back anything we can't believe in and quite frankly....most of the claims I've seen are simply preposterous.

I have had many customers ask me about a miracle additive or device, all I can say is if it were so great then all the big guys would all be doing it.

Check this out and tell me if it sells this product to you:
http://www.thermonomics.net/index.html

We don't like anything in the system but refer and oil.

Originally Posted by lucky131

The ambient outside temperature was 30 degrees celsius (yes i'm metric). We had an infra red thermal gun aimed at a set point on the vent outlet. The airconditioner had been running for 1 hour and the compressor was running. The permafrost was administered and within 5 minutes the temperature had dropped to minus 2 degrees celsius a temperature difference of 9 degrees.

Wow. I don't want to use that stuff then.
The evap coil would be a block of ice in a short amount of time. Since minus 2°C, is 28.4°F. The evap coil would have had to of been colder yet. Meaning it was freezing up.

This kind of post/story is why we call it a snake oil claim.

Originally Posted by glitwer

I operate an energy consulting company and have been looking into Thermonomics which is a PROA. I have seen it in action and it seems to provide real results. The treated units are running less, the air is colder and the clients are saving money.
Why is there such a negative connotation with this type of product? It has been proven to do no damage to equipment.
What would be the best way to help HVAC professionals feel more comfortable with a product like this. In these times, everyone should do anything they can to save energy and money!
Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

More data, then just someone saying they have seen it in action, and it works.

Measured, and documented performance data, for the same ambient conditions without the additive.
And then measured and documented performance data with the additive.

Starting amps.
Running amps.
KWHs logged by a separate meter then the building meter.
Refrigerant Temp delta across condenser coil.
Temp delta across condenser coil.
Refrigerant temp delta across evap coil.
Evap coil entering dry and wet bulb temp.
Evap coil leaving dry and wet bulb temp.
Air flow measured in CFM across the evap coil. Both before and after using the additive.

On TV, I saw a magician make a building disappear. Doesn't mean it really happened though.

If it's not POE/mineral oil or refrigerant, it's snake oil.

Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm

We are 'hands-on' guys. WE are the guys who have to clean up after this stuff does it's damage.. We are the guys who are on the hook for false claims and false hopes when it doesn't acheive what the customer expects it to.

To answer your question about how to get us to embrace it?

YOU WON'T. Period, end, full stop.

The product not meeting customers expectations can be dealt with by a fee model based on performance. What kind of mess have you seen these products leave? And are you talking about Thermonomics specifically?

Originally Posted by glitwer

I operate an energy consulting company and have been looking into Thermonomics which is a PROA. I have seen it in action and it seems to provide real results. The treated units are running less, the air is colder and the clients are saving money.

Why is there such a negative connotation with this type of product? It has been proven to do no damage to equipment.

What would be the best way to help HVAC professionals feel more comfortable with a product like this. In these times, everyone should do anything they can to save energy and money!

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

We are 'hands-on' guys. WE are the guys who have to clean up after this stuff does it's damage.. We are the guys who are on the hook for false claims and false hopes when it doesn't acheive what the customer expects it to.

To answer your question about how to get us to embrace it?

YOU WON'T. Period, end, full stop.

Thermonomics- PROA

I operate an energy consulting company and have been looking into Thermonomics which is a PROA. I have seen it in action and it seems to provide real results. The treated units are running less, the air is colder and the clients are saving money.

Why is there such a negative connotation with this type of product? It has been proven to do no damage to equipment.

What would be the best way to help HVAC professionals feel more comfortable with a product like this. In these times, everyone should do anything they can to save energy and money!

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Originally Posted by lucky131

i have read a great deal about the thoughts of Refrigeration engineers about Polarized Refrigerant Oil Additives., Many thoughts have been to simply write this stuff off as "snake oil". Some of you guys have backed the science behind the theory but doubted that they would work in practise and others (not many) have supported them.
Last month i witnessed the use of 30ml of a product called Permafrost being applied to a 5 year old split system 8KW air-conditioner. The ambient outside temperature was 30 degrees celsius (yes i'm metric). We had an infra red thermal gun aimed at a set point on the vent outlet. The airconditioner had been running for 1 hour and the compressor was running. The permafrost was administered and within 5 minutes the temperature had dropped to minus 2 degrees celsius a temperature difference of 9 degrees.

It was one of the most impressive tests i have ever witnessed. Added to this was the fact that the compressor was distinctly quieter.

Can anyone tell me what possibly could cause such a dynamic change in this split system other than what PROA's are designed to do? I am cynical and skeptical in most things, but i am afraid that seeing is believing and unless someone can tell me what else could possibly have caused the change i mentioned above, then maybe the 70% of PROA skeptics might want to re-think there position.

Am i alone in this matter or are there others out there who have witnessed PROA's in action?

Hey lucky131 if your still out there.I have reed alot about PROA and have seen compress shield in action with the same out come!

But historical evidence shows PROA to do more harm than good.

I have tested iceCOLD which is the non-toxic version (not PROA) with better results.

www.usrefrigerationtech.com

Maybe PROA does work.!!!

i have read a great deal about the thoughts of Refrigeration engineers about Polarized Refrigerant Oil Additives., Many thoughts have been to simply write this stuff off as "snake oil". Some of you guys have backed the science behind the theory but doubted that they would work in practise and others (not many) have supported them.
Last month i witnessed the use of 30ml of a product called Permafrost being applied to a 5 year old split system 8KW air-conditioner. The ambient outside temperature was 30 degrees celsius (yes i'm metric). We had an infra red thermal gun aimed at a set point on the vent outlet. The airconditioner had been running for 1 hour and the compressor was running. The permafrost was administered and within 5 minutes the temperature had dropped to minus 2 degrees celsius a temperature difference of 9 degrees.

It was one of the most impressive tests i have ever witnessed. Added to this was the fact that the compressor was distinctly quieter.

Can anyone tell me what possibly could cause such a dynamic change in this split system other than what PROA's are designed to do? I am cynical and skeptical in most things, but i am afraid that seeing is believing and unless someone can tell me what else could possibly have caused the change i mentioned above, then maybe the 70% of PROA skeptics might want to re-think there position.

Am i alone in this matter or are there others out there who have witnessed PROA's in action?

proateq and Compressheid

Inportant Info:


Compress Sheild is a chlorinated product and will eventually burn out your compressors. (bad stuff)

PROATEQ is the only Approved Non-Chlorinated product that has shown in federal studies to increase efficency from sixteen to twenty-nine percent.

We are pleased.

Dptech

I moved this thread to General area


bob, you will get better coverage in this section

dont use it it is a sham.had alarge commercial account bite that hook and now all their units are full of acid found by oil analysis,moisture levels in samples were in limits.now proateq is saying that the rl32h ref oil is breaking down.if it worked dont you think all the manufactures would be using it in the great race for the best KW per ton ie trane,carrier,york,and mcquay

Has anyone had any positive or negative experience using this or like products?

I've seen CompressSheild and PROATEQ, but all the information that I've seen shows that it doesn't save energy as they claim.

Does anyone know of any reports that validate savings?

I'm at a standstill and need some help. I'll be researching...

Thanks Bob's Testing