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I get your point Sysint, didn't realize you were so experienced with BACnet, my bad.

Silver - I'm just trying to see what's changed. Anyway, talking to a BCU is a system level. Can the Delta (I think they have nice stuff BTW) VAV box DIRECTLY share space temp or other variables to an Alerton VAV? (without using a GC) Last time I checked that was a no-go. Can I configure all Delta's controllers with ALC software?

Anyway, there is no "mapping" in Lonworks except for the ilon100 and NVE's. (not really a map either) If you are talking about binding, that is where you draw a connector between 2 or more points so they share information or override.

Also, just 2 years ago the Delta sales guy said the access controllers were not BACnet. They made a change?

Well, i can say that all of Delta's BACnet controllers, are now PTP, or point to point, which means, any two controllers will talk to one another and are fully programmable.

Hi Sysint, I'm not meaning to rowl you up, i'm just trying to clarify Native BACnet as such, I've never dealt with lonworks but i hear it is difficult and time consuming. It's a process in which points have to be mapped. Or in other words, translated from one protocol to another. With native BACnet there is none of this, you configure the adresses of the controller pop it online, and its as if you were looking at the original system controller, too easy.
I've integrated with Siemens, ALC, Cutler Hammer, Cleaver Brooks, Phoenix Fume Hoods. To name a few.

Yes they will talk to one another, for instance, I had integrated with a TRANE Summit BCU, that was on a chiller, BTW Trane is not NATIVE BACnet but they have a really nice interface that works well, the BCU acts as the translator or Gateway, anyway, I had to reset the chilled water setpoint from the outside air, all done from the Delta side of things, I then sent this value to the Chilled Water Setpoint in the BCU, the chiller the n controlled to this calcualted setpoint, I can start and stop the chiller on a weekly schedule or demand, it's to easy, BTW Trane sets up the BCU.

Anyway Vendors can claim to be BACnet which only conforms to some of the standards, whereas NATIVE BACnet either meets or exceeds all of these standards. I picked trane because it was the easiest integration I've done. And it works well, again there are limitations, Each vendor has there own programming language, so yes you will need the proprietary software to edit any programming. But you can command the points through GCL+ which is Delta's Programming Language, or Command them Manually. So i guess in a sense you can program the other guys gear, through the BACnet front end.

What is complicated about Lonworks?
What makes NATIVE BACnet easy?
It seems you are still talking System Level integration. What about device level integration? In a native BACnet system, can a VAV from one manufacturer "talk" directly to a VAV from another?

As an HVAC Tech, I've dealt with a fair amount of BACnet Integration, BACnet is definetley a wonderful thing, I think it is misconceived, it is not the Magical Word everyone thinks it is. When integrating the best thing to do is to try to combine two NATIVE Bacnet systems, when iI say native i mean there are no Gateways, or as i like to call them "Trinkets" needed in order for these two systems to talk to one another. They each have BACnet ports, such as RS232, UDP/IP, MS/TP, Ethernet and are basically Plug and Play other then a few configuration changes such as Network addresses, MAC addresses and those such things, these two systems are Plug and Play. None of this Echelon stuff which is rediculously complicated to set up. I know most customers well here in Canada are required to recieve three prices when bidding on work, so they don't always end up with a 3RD Party NATIVE Bacnet Vendor. But if you can sole source the work, try to stick to NATIVE BACnet Vendors.

Email me on it anytime....

No single sales point. People like freedom. They like control. They like competitive pricing. Therefore, they like Open. Don't sell names, sell concept.

Question(s)- How many of your customers give a rip about the name of the refer stuff you install? Or, how many give a rip if you tell them it's good?

All you need is a thought out platform.

And Dowa, rather than "And because of your analness" I kinda prefer "analysis" - if you know what I mean.

You know sumtin cheesehead,

I use to wonder why you were so hyper on this. And because of your analness, if thats a word, I decided to dig a little deeper into what you were screaming about on here.

Your absolutely right on with your ideas.

I really want to get into this more. My biggest problem is the market I am in. It's so dogged down by propietary systems. And there whores too. And this area is so behind on control as in comparison to what you do Sysint, and I say that since I know your market too. You might call me crazy but Milwaukee metropolitan is a very wierd and unique market for things new, from things old. It's a very open minded market. Here in Metro Detroit it seems like people stick to what they think is safe. Because it's from that major manufacturer. They reason, "how could they be wrong".

I can give you so many examples. One in particular. An account I use to do. They had VVT Gen 1. It was time for new. They wanted the Gen 3, even though I could have done something "open" seeing as how they were adding on, with in the next 2 years about 50,000 SQFT. No no the customer says, Carrier is "gooooood". And what killed me the most is, they had nothing but problems with their control system. And there going to be stuck because by the time they get to adding that next addition, the Gen 3 crap will be out of date, parts hard to come by and there you go, there screwed.

How do you sell it? Thats the question. How do you convince the buyer, when you got such a strong propietary presence and old school thinking.

Dowa- I made the change in 1992 after realizing most of what you said... what's taking you so long?

I got one too for you control freaks.

I seen a building. Half on one system, other half on another. The gateways were forever screwing things up, so they let the controls dude, web base it somehow. Screwed it up even more. I aint no guru, so just bear with me. But the complexity of this system as a whole for this building was simply due to two different propietary systems who chose not to cooperate with one another, and it caused major problems all the time. So the company taking care of the building decides to outsource the problem to a fired CHOO CHOO guy. So what do you think his solve was. Exactly. The facilities guy if he was ever introduced to an open standard system, I'd bet a million bucks he would of went for it. So now they are having problems all the time and are broke and frustrated.

My point about this is, that this customer and his beutiful building is so horked up because of the push these manufacturers want to try to force their shit on you. And they got their techs brainwashed as well. Even fired ones. Now this facility is screwed up still and you know what, no wonder we look like idiots.

And another thing that chaps my ass is, if your going to stay in the stoneage with your propietary crap, then for god sakes make it backwards compatible with the crap you made ten years ago of the same version. You know all these idiots making these decisions have no clue how a decision is made from a facilities managers point of veiw, or even from a contractors point of veiw. These manufactures have no idea what it takes to go to market in this area.

I lve how some refrigeration controller manufacturers think they can run even ONE Roof TOP too. You these people are suppose to be smarter than I am.

tHE BASIS OF HARDWARE. io di do ai ao. Thats all pretty understandable. I get that. I get that each manufacturer if they so chose, can do communication the way they want instead of using a LON type thing.

I guess thats what I don't get. WTF do all these manufacturers accomplish by limiting there customer. I guess my thing is. Okay if your not using LON.

You never go to a factory, a large office complex or what ever and see every stinking thing made by the same manufacturer. Say out of ten rtus which are trane, then you got a york chiller, then you got 8 mcquay AHU's. Okay so now all these require a tad diffrent ability and level of control. Since the easiest way to control it is to use their specific propietary comm, you begin to start thinking gateways. By the time your done, it would have been easier to have ever gol darn thing on the same comm. But you can't do that with propietary set ups. What is with these guys? They are only killing themselves. I see this as a revolutionary idea, this lon talk. You either join or your going to be SOL.

Software too. If using LON you have a ton of open software that you can choose based on what your customers needs are. Maybe they want more graphics, maybe they want more alarm sophisication, maybe they want cheap. If our stuck with one, heaven forbid two or more propietary systems with all kinds of software and gateways, my god, no wonder these customers are screaming. And what about the poor TECHNICIAN?

Adam,
The Trane branch office does offer some training on fundamentals of ddc etc. Usually the price is not to bad if you cant get your employer to pay for it. The training center is in Fenton just west of 44 and 270. Also call Rich at St.Louis boiler supply (314)-962-9242 he can probably find you some training in our area. E-mail me and I will check and see if any of our in house daily operations guys are going to be doing any training sessions in the near future if they are I will reserve you a seat in there at no cost to you. We are located in St.Louis county near 70 and 270.

Allen



[Edited by BC1 on 01-14-2005 at 06:08 PM]

tss,
Does your company do any work in Southern Illinois or the St. Louis metropolitan area? Do you have an office farther south, or is all your work in northern Illinois? I’m not in a position to relocate, thanks, Adam.

Question answered?

Agross:

We are seeking entry level DDC technicians. If you are interested, please check our job posting entitled "control tec"

Thank you for your consideration,

Jeff Pennington
TSS

Originally posted by agross
can anyone tell me were i can get more info on ddc???

The classes are worth it Ive taken a few Siemans classes and definatley learned some new stuff.
Also go to some different manufactures sites and start reading about their different controllers as well as interfaces and see whats out there. Google is your friend as well as this message board. Here is a couple of good links to get you started. Maybe some others can post some more

DDC Tutorials

DDC online

R S E S had some great training booklets put together on all the ASPECTS of DDC.

From the terms to actual system layout , were a great training tool for beginners ( people getting into controls ) regardless of previous experience.

download catalog below and check out

1.LM17 interactive cd $99.00
2.CBT12 interactive cd $99.95

I dont work for Johnson but i give to Kudos on there training packages usually very well wrote and presented in a fundamental fashion.

http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/cg-gls/Catalog2005.pdf


Allen

You can download and read (study) this:

http://hbctechlit.honeywell.com/tech...s/77-E1100.pdf

can anyone tell me were i can get more info on ddc??? i've been reading everything i can get my hands on at work (Siemens), but it doesn't really tell me a whole lot. are there textbooks or is it all OTJ? also, i was thinking about taking Siemens 4 day class in Buffalo Grove, IL, is it worth the $1200? I'm not nessecairly interested in Siemens controls, i just need to learn the basics... what's 4-20ma (other than milliamps) mean, stuff like that