Reply to Thread

Originally Posted by SolarMike

Careful... Time will tell.

hi mike:

the wish is with accountable practises, I am sure, as a believer- steward ship is a given , if being practiced as instructed...
the disassociation with general "green" has little to do with stewardship.

I just posted again on this old line because as you know too: ask how the HW is being COMPLETELY considered with any Solar, Gt-Hvac-Priority , Double Priority, to get to all the loads that utilities choke us about.

About this thread:
UP TO DATE more so:

It is older I know, but since readers review this blog, I ask:

Do you want Heat-Recovery of 100% HW in the Cooling mode, loops and wells off line? at the 20 minute for 80 gal tank recoveries LIKE OIL HW but at a 60-80% savings? "series flow refrigeration", "fullsized desuperheating, and HW production 100% instantly on-Demand"

Pool heating while A/C?

Just ask AQUACAL, St Pete/ and Addison, how their "southern mktg" is booming, as they have also moved North for your reasoning ADDED to their Southern Successes.

If you know a company made DUAL Priority with 100% heat recovery in Cooling as well as in separate Pool heating and F-Air Cooling, and Heating ... all in one,
and
had wireless 4 zone controllers since the 1990's OEM built in, could you see how ALL considered, a VERY FAST ROI or LOWEST FIRST COST WITH 30% tax credit on all attached components GT HW to HVAC , etc... all accounted.. ?>?

That is why the SOUTH is screaming for GTHVAC-PriorityHW and Double Priority, or others using an additional W:W system (separate 2nd unit) for even simpler application.

Design with FULL HW in mind.

Originally Posted by Six

What region of thr US do you live in ?

Seems geo ... over time.

Originally Posted by cdhand

Commtech I see the world much as you do, to say the least I am not a P.C. person. I have another reason to cut back on energy. Our country is at war and we are paying for people that want to kill us. I don't want to be a part of that. I put in geo 3 years ago and it cut my total electric bill by over 30%. my wife and I bought 2 Prius cars and we get 54 miles to the gallon and it is the best car I have owned. As for being green that is not for me, I think God made me and he loves me. Somethings he lets me control and others he is in charge of like the temperature on earth or the sea level. This planet will last as long as he wants it to and it will give us all we need to live on. Just a few years ago we thought we were running out of fuel now we know that in the US we have 100 years of natural gas and oil in the ground. We just need a president that will let us get it.

Careful what you wish for as the NEW sources of NG may come a a price higher than you want.........contaminated water supplies. There is a lot of fracking done in Alberta and lots of ranchers with bad wells. Time will tell.

Originally Posted by commtech77

What region of thr US do you live in ?

Seems geo is less prevalent and less practical in Southern areas. I live in Houston and just dont see how Geo ould compete with a high SEER conventional HP or high SEER a/c with a natural gas furnace in upfront cost and effeciency over time.

I am in the Northeast region, heating dominated. Cooling dominated areas can use GSHP's with a good vertical heat exchanger.

ChrisJ RI

my 2 cents

Commtech I see the world much as you do, to say the least I am not a P.C. person. I have another reason to cut back on energy. Our country is at war and we are paying for people that want to kill us. I don't want to be a part of that. I put in geo 3 years ago and it cut my total electric bill by over 30%. my wife and I bought 2 Prius cars and we get 54 miles to the gallon and it is the best car I have owned. As for being green that is not for me, I think God made me and he loves me. Somethings he lets me control and others he is in charge of like the temperature on earth or the sea level. This planet will last as long as he wants it to and it will give us all we need to live on. Just a few years ago we thought we were running out of fuel now we know that in the US we have 100 years of natural gas and oil in the ground. We just need a president that will let us get it.

Originally Posted by commtech77

Its been around for a long time but its popularity of late has shot through the roof because ...your right...high energy cost. Saying that the people who sale the stuff or represent the the stuff don't use the whole green energy approach as a pitch is just naive.

It should be able to stand on its own merits without demagoguery and scare tactics.

All I'm saying is there are other alternatives which are also highly efficient and more practical depending on your location and I have yet to justify the expense of geo thermal installation at this time.

You never know, I may change my mind but I'm going to look at the pros and cons.


Energy prices are high NOT because of limited supplies. You realize that right ? Demonizing oil companies with misinformation and limiting their access to federal lands and the Gulf for exploration only hurts the middle class.

Implementing draconian and punitive Federal standards through the use of EPA regulations with the shadow intent of putting companies that produce carbon emissions out of business only hurts the middle class.

Tanking the dollar which is the currency used to buy and sell oil on the world market by printing and borrowing trillions to sustain a collapsing social safety net as stupid liberal policies drive the Country further into economic despair hurts the middle class.

Forcing punitive arbitrary standards on coal companies only hurts the middle class as we pay to have their factories retrofitted by way of higher electric bills.

Giving "green companies " BILLIONS in guaranteed federal loans and grants just to watch them go out of business and the money disappear is bad for the middle class.

Al gore mentioned that the seas would rise and parts of Florida and the gulf states would be under water by now. He just bought a beach house recently.....guess where.

Do I need to post links to the above statements to prove their validity ?

I live in Houston by the way.

So I have little respect for the green energy initiative right now and think it's just another scam.

Its part of the title for geo-thermal on this forum.......twice.

This is nuts. Are you saying that just because we now rely on oil and gas for much of our energy we should not bother with options? I guess you want to live in a little world where things don't change. Good luck finding it.

Geo, like a furnace or boiler is a choice people make, some because there is no gas around, some because they want a lower carbon footprint. It doesn't matter why, it is their choice.

Any company who advertises their product as GREEN is free to do so as long as they aren't throwing BS at people. Costs to run the HPs have been shown and they are correct and since you live in Texas, look at the cooling SEER rates. Your furnace cant beat that.

How long do they last? I know a guy who has been using his old Westinghouse air source HP for 30 years and it is still going strong. Annual COP is still around 2.8....... IN TORONTO

I hate politics. We chose to market our services and avoid the use of wording like "green" specifically to avoid dealing with people who have the mindset of the OP and any possible discussion of politics.

Water source geothermal is about economics. The economics of operating costs over the life of the system. Whether the economics work for you or not depends on your geographic location and the cost to construct the exchanger.

In our are the real truth is that climate master is providing quality geothermal units to contractors for 10-15% more over standard heat pumps and if you spec high effeciency units then the cost is a wash.

That leaves only the cost of the exchanger as the up cost to the system. Hdpe pipe is gauranteed for 50 years minimum so the if loops are chosen for the exchanger, that purchase will last for the life of the home, or beyond.

The biggest benefit is that you will be heating and cooling your home efficiently at a lower cost than fossil fuel. My problem with all fossil fuels is that they are a traded commodity, the traders set the the price based on real or assumed demand. The distributors then can charge whatever the market will bear.

Unless we are talking about California, most electric rates are controlled by a regulated body within the state. That means price control by an oversight commission that sets the level of profit allowed to be made by something the average household can not do without. All that equals long term price stability for the energy required to run the compressor to make heat or cooling.

We also avoid any pay back, pay for itself marketing. Geo is a choice and it is not for everyone. What is true is that everyone in this day and time expects to heat and cool their home, how they choose to do it will effect the homes operateing budget for the life of the equipment.

Now the rebate from uncle sam. In most regions of the country the cost to construct the exchanger for a geothermal system is 30% or less of the total cost of the project. That is why the rebate is 30%. It was meant to encourage people to make an energy effecient choice to heat and cool. In our area the cost to construct vertical loops is about 15% of total cost of project so that leaves you with more than adequate incentive to level the playing field.

Eric

Cool thanks. I'd like to get into them and talk my boss into starting to install them. Green, efficiency, or whatever it sounds like a moneymaker.

Originally Posted by Hvac216

I don't know much about geo but the people I've came across that have them love them. There not very popular in northeast Ohio yet, or if they are there a small group of companies that actually service them. The "greenest" i go would be a high eff 2 stage hp with a nat gas modulating furnace for a fraction of the cost. Are they really in the 40k range to install? Up here it seems like that would be tough to get a return on investment? What is their lifespan? Thanks.

That 40k install included 2 complete dual fuel geo systems; two 2 stage vs furnaces with 2 geo heat pumps. (owner was somewhat anal and wanted full gas backup).

Not your average geo install.

I don't know much about geo but the people I've came across that have them love them. There not very popular in northeast Ohio yet, or if they are there a small group of companies that actually service them. The "greenest" i go would be a high eff 2 stage hp with a nat gas modulating furnace for a fraction of the cost. Are they really in the 40k range to install? Up here it seems like that would be tough to get a return on investment? What is their lifespan? Thanks.

Originally Posted by chuckcrj

Fluff??

I put down very solid numbers, no fluff.

Also, I am not in the geothermal industry, whatever that is. I fix HVAC/R equipment and couldn't care less if you or others buy geo equipment or not. It won't affect my paycheck.

Thirdly, I stated in this thread that geo makes less sense in some areas but you refused to say where you were from until post 14! If you don't want geo, just don't buy it!! Simple, right?

I objected to your nonsensical posts simply because there was false info in them. Geothermal heating and cooling has been around for close to a century now and is proven to work and work well. Not something new because of a "green movement", give me a break. The reason it is getting more popular now is higher energy costs.

Its been around for a long time but its popularity of late has shot through the roof because ...your right...high energy cost. Saying that the people who sale the stuff or represent the the stuff don't use the whole green energy approach as a pitch is just naive.

It should be able to stand on its own merits without demagoguery and scare tactics.

All I'm saying is there are other alternatives which are also highly efficient and more practical depending on your location and I have yet to justify the expense of geo thermal installation at this time.

You never know, I may change my mind but I'm going to look at the pros and cons.


Energy prices are high NOT because of limited supplies. You realize that right ? Demonizing oil companies with misinformation and limiting their access to federal lands and the Gulf for exploration only hurts the middle class.

Implementing draconian and punitive Federal standards through the use of EPA regulations with the shadow intent of putting companies that produce carbon emissions out of business only hurts the middle class.

Tanking the dollar which is the currency used to buy and sell oil on the world market by printing and borrowing trillions to sustain a collapsing social safety net as stupid liberal policies drive the Country further into economic despair hurts the middle class.

Forcing punitive arbitrary standards on coal companies only hurts the middle class as we pay to have their factories retrofitted by way of higher electric bills.

Giving "green companies " BILLIONS in guaranteed federal loans and grants just to watch them go out of business and the money disappear is bad for the middle class.

Al gore mentioned that the seas would rise and parts of Florida and the gulf states would be under water by now. He just bought a beach house recently.....guess where.

Do I need to post links to the above statements to prove their validity ?

I live in Houston by the way.

So I have little respect for the green energy initiative right now and think it's just another scam.

Its part of the title for geo-thermal on this forum.......twice.

Originally Posted by commtech77

Resorting to demagoguery in an attempt to legitimize a product is akin to selling snake oil. It doesn't help your argument.

Come down on fossil fuels to soon and we can replace asthma with diseases like anemia, scurvy, pellagra and a host of other afflictions caused by starvation. Like it or not fossil fuels are the blood of our economy.

Millions more unemployed as punitive govt standards are mandated that drives up the cost of goods and services who are left without a social safety net because the dollar is all but worthless due to mass inflation from printing and borrowing.


Hows that for demagogy. The liberal EPA idiot that just resigned because he let the cat out of the bag is a good example of this govts intentions.

That said I will form my own opinion about Geo- thermal when Im a bit more educated. All Ive heard so far is its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Its not a good start for geo thermal is it when all you get is the fluff

Fluff??

I put down very solid numbers, no fluff.

Also, I am not in the geothermal industry, whatever that is. I fix HVAC/R equipment and couldn't care less if you or others buy geo equipment or not. It won't affect my paycheck.

Thirdly, I stated in this thread that geo makes less sense in some areas but you refused to say where you were from until post 14! If you don't want geo, just don't buy it!! Simple, right?

I objected to your nonsensical posts simply because there was false info in them. Geothermal heating and cooling has been around for close to a century now and is proven to work and work well. Not something new because of a "green movement", give me a break. The reason it is getting more popular now is higher energy costs.

Originally Posted by SolarMike

You can listen to Geo salesmen and you can believe them or not but you need to look up the actual stats to be sure.

Geo is sold as a green product and it is to some extent and depending how the electricity is made it could be more or less green. Where I am from very little of the power comes from dirty sources so Geo is GREEN. This has nothing to do with global warming but it does have to do with your kids asthma rates. Ground level ozone makes smog and that comes from burning fossil fuels and that affects everyone.

That, sir, is self preservation.........or you can call it green. Regardless, it is a "conservative" thing to do.

Resorting to demagoguery in an attempt to legitimize a product is akin to selling snake oil. It doesn't help your argument.

Come down on fossil fuels to soon and we can replace asthma with diseases like anemia, scurvy, pellagra and a host of other afflictions caused by starvation. Like it or not fossil fuels are the blood of our economy.

Millions more unemployed as punitive govt standards are mandated that drives up the cost of goods and services who are left without a social safety net because the dollar is all but worthless due to mass inflation from printing and borrowing.


Hows that for demagogy. The liberal EPA idiot that just resigned because he let the cat out of the bag is a good example of this govts intentions.

That said I will form my own opinion about Geo- thermal when Im a bit more educated. All Ive heard so far is its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Its not a good start for geo thermal is it when all you get is the fluff

Originally Posted by commtech77

A 100 bux says your in the geo-thermal industry. lol....its hillarious.



I said I would look into it more before adding any more comments on the practicallity of geo thermal.


To do that objectively I need NOT ask a Geo Thermal salesman why its practical.

Pros and Cons, you get it.

One things certain. Geo Thermal is supported by people who are in the geo thermal industry !

I can check that off my list.

You can listen to Geo salesmen and you can believe them or not but you need to look up the actual stats to be sure.

Geo is sold as a green product and it is to some extent and depending how the electricity is made it could be more or less green. Where I am from very little of the power comes from dirty sources so Geo is GREEN. This has nothing to do with global warming but it does have to do with your kids asthma rates. Ground level ozone makes smog and that comes from burning fossil fuels and that affects everyone.

That, sir, is self preservation.........or you can call it green. Regardless, it is a "conservative" thing to do.

Originally Posted by commtech77

What region of thr US do you live in ?

Seems geo is less prevalent and less practical in Southern areas. I live in Houston and just dont see how Geo ould compete with a high SEER conventional HP or high SEER a/c with a natural gas furnace in upfront cost and effeciency over time.

Finally something to chew on!

The key to any geothermal system is the type of exchanger you choose to install and the region of the country you live in. Typically every region of the country has allready decided or found the best exchanger for it's location.

How do you know which exchanger is the best? It is the one that is the most cost effective to install while yielding the most reliable results in your locale.

Just hearing that a product is expensive and you can not afford it, is just bull. The trick is to find the honest proffesional in your AO that is presenting real world options not just a sales pitch as you have allready pointed out.

Some things I have heard about Texas are: horizontal, vertical, DX, and a smattering of open loops.

And yes I am not only the president of hair club for men, I am also a client.

If you want to talk about some of the stuff I mentioned, start another thread so people do not have to read to page 2 to get info.
Eric

Originally Posted by ChrisJ RI

CT77,
I am not "in the geo industry", Just someone w/geo in my 2 yr old home. Here are some numbers to think about.
Old house 1200' ranch, oil heat, propane for stove and of course an electric bill.
10 month oil budget 330.00 month, electric bill 100.00 mon average. + propane= 4600.00

New house 2000' ranch geo for heat, a/c, 100% DHW. All electric= 2100.00 yr.

Paid about 10-12k more then a typical heating with a/c system. I live in a bigger house and will save enough on utilities to pay back the difference in 5 yrs.

Chris

What region of thr US do you live in ?

Seems geo is less prevalent and less practical in Southern areas. I live in Houston and just dont see how Geo ould compete with a high SEER conventional HP or high SEER a/c with a natural gas furnace in upfront cost and effeciency over time.

Originally Posted by waterpirate

Geothermal salesman?
Thats so funny I ruined another keyboard!

A funny thing about the internet is the amount of people who do not fill out their profiles. Mine is complete, is yours?
Eric

Wasnt really refering to you personally, just making a point on the importance of making an objective decision.

You are in the indusrty right ?

Geothermal salesman?
Thats so funny I ruined another keyboard!

A funny thing about the internet is the amount of people who do not fill out their profiles. Mine is complete, is yours?
Eric

CT77,
I am not "in the geo industry", Just someone w/geo in my 2 yr old home. Here are some numbers to think about.
Old house 1200' ranch, oil heat, propane for stove and of course an electric bill.
10 month oil budget 330.00 month, electric bill 100.00 mon average. + propane= 4600.00

New house 2000' ranch geo for heat, a/c, 100% DHW. All electric= 2100.00 yr.

Paid about 10-12k more then a typical heating with a/c system. I live in a bigger house and will save enough on utilities to pay back the difference in 5 yrs.

Chris

Originally Posted by waterpirate

What you know now amounts to "about a thimble full of loose talk and misconceptions" with no real data.

Data and understanding will save you.
Eric

A 100 bux says your in the geo-thermal industry. lol....its hillarious.



I said I would look into it more before adding any more comments on the practicallity of geo thermal.


To do that objectively I need NOT ask a Geo Thermal salesman why its practical.

Pros and Cons, you get it.

One things certain. Geo Thermal is supported by people who are in the geo thermal industry !

I can check that off my list.