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Originally Posted by JohnLoves2ski

Die tomorrow? There are good control systems, and there are crappy ones. We don't integrate to crappy ones.

Ah so there you go.

You don't sit there playing with stuff to see if you can do it.
You don't integrate something if you decide it to be crappy - define a crappy product?
You typically only integrate products that you know you can and use a communication protocol that is either current or can still be supported by the product manufacturer or are stand alone units that are enabled/dissabled via a contactor somewhere and the controllers are not actually networked.

Completely off the point of what I was talking about.

Hundreds of VAV boxes, one global controller, occupied building... you can't just upgrade one panel. Besides, even if full replacement is far and away the best way to go - the customer can't afford it.
Die tomorrow? There are good control systems, and there are crappy ones. We don't integrate to crappy ones. old JCI, Landis-Gyr, Alerton field controllers are all pretty robust. We have done lots of these, the cost savings is well worth the risk. New global controller front end and graphics, leave all the VAV controllers, save the customer big $$. Where are located you that your customers can just swap out a control system at will? As important as control systems are to us control nerds, they are just an overhead expense to a building owner.

Originally Posted by JohnLoves2ski

$15K to integrate to unit that have been working perfectly for a decade or two, $100K to upgrade to shiny new controls. That's why.

Yawn.

I will reply however.
This is all very true. However there can be no guarantee given to the system. The customer will pay whatever they pay so that their 2 decades old bit of kit kind of talks with the new stuff. Tomorrow it could die then the customer will need to pay whatever it costs to replace it anyway.
Surly it's better to simply remove this stuff from the off. Fit nice new gear, customer gets new stuff, warranties all the biz and the contractor typically gets new service contracts.
And the system should do what it is supposed to. The product is supported by the manufacturer. In fact the manufacturer is actually still around and there is no need to faf about trying to get ancient software tools to sort out any problems.
Typically and depending on the system, a panel could be replaced with a few remote/distributed IO modules for nowhere near the prices you suggest.

Anyway, whatever dude.
I think you guys simply do some things a little differently.

Originally Posted by prtadko

Why do you Americans even bother with this stuff?
I see post after post where people are asking for ancient software tools because you are trying to do something with a completely obsolete controller.

Why don't you rip this old junk out?

If the customer wants this particular panel integrated or whatever then renew the control gear......

$15K to integrate to unit that have been working perfectly for a decade or two, $100K to upgrade to shiny new controls. That's why.

Right on!! That's why I have to take the time to do it!
The point of the quote is it can go both ways, (Britain / American) and we have our work cut out for us.

On a lot of jobs (and I do not disagree with you, rip and replace does work, but it's not always the best answer) we run into so many things where I have to make a 15 page job aide to account for every single eventuality that the tech might encounter! They still manage to botch it, not because they are stupid or ignorant. They just don't think, or are the slightest bit adventurous. Our education system has made a lot of kids test takers and task oriented mindless ninnies. Do steps 1.2.3. Stop. My opinion, "Here, it's RS-232, figure it out and get back to me." and I wait for them to ask the question. If they learn, its time and money well spent. Next time they encounter it, it's not a fire drill emergency.

Hahahahaha that's quality.

I don't even know who Nigel Short is. And what does that have to do with anything?
All kids are complete spanners anyway.
Hahahahahaha.

"We have a large underclass in Britain, and a fairly low standard of education. Our best universities are extremely good, but a very significant proportion of the British population that comes out of compulsory schooling with very low standards of education." Nigel Short

IF the shoe fits....

Wow...sour grapes, anyone?

Some people are content with "what"

Some people want to know "why" and "how"

Personally, I prefer the latter but am fine if others don't see it that way. It's by understanding how you got to a given place that you my be able to derive why and how you need to get to the next destinstion.

Ken

Originally Posted by prtadko

Nuts to that!

You and your firm are mad.
Paying people to sit around and play with something to see if you can get it to work.
If that's what you all do no wonder your economy is pants.
Rip it out and replace. The next generation of guys don't need to be shown how far we have come as a industry. What a ridiculous thing to say.
Do you think they care?
"Hay lets go visit old grandpa atufano. Maybe he will tell us a story...."
"Hi kids..... Well back in my day......"

Nuts to that!

You and your firm are mad.
Paying people to sit around and play with something to see if you can get it to work.
If that's what you all do no wonder your economy is pants.
Rip it out and replace. The next generation of guys don't need to be shown how far we have come as a industry. What a ridiculous thing to say.
Do you think they care?
"Hay lets go visit old grandpa atufano. Maybe he will tell us a story...."
"Hi kids..... Well back in my day......"

Fun with SCU's

I can think of this reason.

It's fun.

This was given to me as a project to work on to see if I can just simply get it to work. I got it back to life, I can hit it over 232 and now I'm just trying different methods of uploading the software.

Plus, this stuff needs to be handed to the new generation of techs who need to see how far we've come as an industry. Watching them get it to work gives them a sense of accomplishment and a different way of thinking that is largely lost on todays entering workforce.

All to often I see people not-even-try to fix something or take a chance. "I'm on the phone with Help Desk(YouTube)"
This is a perfect opportunity to understand the _how_ and _why_ rs-232/485/### actually communicate and work.

Combining this into a program for them to write a Niagara Driver so then they can understand what is involved with software modules, protocols, etc.

Why do you Americans even bother with this stuff?
I see post after post where people are asking for ancient software tools because you are trying to do something with a completely obsolete controller.

Why don't you rip this old junk out?

If the customer wants this particular panel integrated or whatever then renew the control gear......

do you still have the programmer and scu datamate available? I have an SCU that I'm looking to integrate into a Jace controller. I got it to work over 232, tried to send the device over serial but no luck. I have the floppy from 2004 with the .p2 file.

Originally Posted by Lon3927

I would like to obtain the software to download the P2 file if possible since there is quite a bit to enter. Also I dont have a print out of the points set up. I'm not familiar with CDM software and I have the datamate software but I don't see where it will handle the P2 file either.

I am not very familar with Datamate but the user's manual saya that it should be able to use the .P2 file.
What version do you have?

OK, I see where you're at then.

You are correct that the BLN on the controller module is RS485. The protocol is proprietary tho and I don't have a clue on how to decode it.

I guess I could suggest that you contact the local Siemens office and get a "Trunk Interface" which is what we use to go from the 485 to the 232 for our PC applications. But you'd still have to figure out the protocol.

So, are you saying that the MMI and the AUX MMI ports on the controller module do not function? If they don't, I'm sorry, I don't have any other suggestions.

power system 600

our system was ok. there were controler module, trunk isolator, UC (power system 600 landis & gyr) and a Delphi software. one day a controller module broke down, sinse that day we cant comunicate. I tried to fix it, but some integrated circuit blowed up.
I opened the trunk isolator and I saw the integrated circuit sn75176, so the comunication is rs485. if i descover the protocol, so just make the converter to rs232. My new Delphi program will get the point and keep in HD.

You do have a controller module somewhere, but maybe it's not easily accessable?

The easiest way to tap that point info would be thru the MMI port on a controller module (I know you said that you didn't have one and if you don't, then you also don't have a RS485 trunk to tie into anyway). The MMI port outputs in ASCII text.

Originally Posted by idel_nog

I need to comunicate to power system 600, but I don't have a control,ler module. I know that this comunication is RS485, isn't it? I want to make a program in Delphi to read the points. I have a RS232-RS485 converter, but I need to know how the protocol is. can you help me?

comunication to "POWER SYSTEM 600" by Landis & Gyr

I need to comunicate to power system 600, but I don't have a control,ler module. I know that this comunication is RS485, isn't it? I want to make a program in Delphi to read the points. I have a RS232-RS485 converter, but I need to know how the protocol is. can you help me?

I would like to obtain the software to download the P2 file if possible since there is quite a bit to enter. Also I dont have a print out of the points set up. I'm not familiar with CDM software and I have the datamate software but I don't see where it will handle the P2 file either.

BCS\SCU programmer won't be able to use the P2 files, I think the P2's were introduced with Datamate and CDM software.
Obviously, you're prepared to enter it by hand and I think that's your only option at this point. Other data in the P2 file will include TOD, trend definitions. It doesn't sound like too critical of a system tho, so you'll be OK.

I do recall that there's a EXE to convert BCS database files to text and then they can be imported and converted to the newer file
(P2) but I do not recall that there's a way to go backwards.

Federated Database Utility 6.1.8

Noticed this Powers Landis/Gyr system has a backup file with a P2 extension The Job Log Text file says it's Objectivity Federated Database Utility Version 6.1.8. I'm getting ready to re type in the program however I would like to load the existing backup file. The system will be replaced soon but not yet.

Unable to use the SCU Programmer Rejects the file.

Any Help Thanks.