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Originally Posted by JKopp You do need a set of SMAN3 so you can properly charge it. Sman3 so far are crap for us, i was hopeful after the torture of Testo 560 ending in a full refund. Both of the cheapie handles stripped out, the dumb clip on thermocouples broke from bumping around under the soft case. Bought a hard case for $40 bucks and now have an internal leak on the suction gauge, you can hear it hiss under 300 lbs of nitrogen. This leak caused me to just about loose my mind working on a Stoelting ice cream machine. Where's the "F" in leak already!? Oh, on my $400 gauge set. My brother's set which he put off buying until a year after mine, smart since the Testo cluster (blank) incident. His set is also no in for repair as they register 220 psi on both gauges no matter what the refrigerant. oh, his handle also broke. I used $10 J+B replacements which work perfectly, my brother is a bit old school this is what he used. The high side hose is off because he was installing a mini split.
A 3-2-3 gauge set is not as accurate as a 1% gauge set, and a 1% gauge set is not as accurate as a digital gauge set. The way I convinced myself to purchase my digital manifold was by comparing accuracy, efficiency, reliability, and validity. Those are the very same qualifications that any engineer will live and die on when testing ANYTHING. Digital gauges are more accurate, MUCH more efficient, more reliable over the long haul, and are capable of making valid measurements on any and all refrigerant types. The only reason a person would be AGAINST digital gauges is that they are either intimidated by them or simply have not seen the benefits of using them. That said, my old man won't ever use them. He sees their usefulness on a near daily basis, but he's too old fashion to let go of his antiquated tools of yesteryear. Funny enough, he was also pretty reluctant to get his first cell phone. Hmm, funny how new, functional technology seems to always eradicate old, functional technology. After all, Henry Ford's Model-T probably wasn't popular to everybody. Now days, you'd have to take a trip to Lancaster Co., PA to see pre-automobile living!!
Originally Posted by cjpwalker Or gauges, a thermometer, and math. LOL, +1 CT
Originally Posted by Sicofthis Ten four. I understand what your saying. Sorry if I came off kinda hostile. I thought I was gonna have to break out a fresh can of Whupass.... It's all good bro. Learned a long time ago to never take anything on the net seriously... I belong to about 6 different forums and once and a while you just gotta call someone out... GT
Ten four. I understand what your saying. Sorry if I came off kinda hostile.
Originally Posted by Sicofthis You did say good tools like a digital gauge will handicap techs for there entire career. Just saying :munch: Splitting hairs, but the word "good" is not used....And I stand by my statement... Nice try though. GT
Originally Posted by GT Jets Never said anything of the sort. What I did say was these tools do not make better technicians... Also never said they were for dummies, I said the trade was making dummies.... If your gonna quote somebody, I recommend you check your digital manifold set and get all the facts in order.......... GT Originally Posted by GT Jets I appreciate what you are saying, but a $400 manifold set does not make better technicians, not by a long shot, what it will do is prevent them from doing it the "hard way" and handicapping them for their entire career.. He knows now. He also knows how to use a thermometer, a PT chart, a sling psychrometer and an analog gauge... I told him to get digital tools when he learns these very reliable pieces of non technology. You did say good tools like a digital gauge will handicap techs for there entire career. Just saying :munch:
Originally Posted by Sicofthis Because good tools cause bad techs. Do not get gear wrenches they are to time effiecent and easy. I just think its funny when you guys say digital gauges are for dummies or I'm not ever getting those cause I can do math. Your totally missing the point. I'll put this down as a lost cause. Nice install btw I like the platform. Never said anything of the sort. What I did say was these tools do not make better technicians... Also never said they were for dummies, I said the trade was making dummies.... I just find them completely unnecessary for the type of work I do, there is not one thing you can do with a digi manifold that I can not do with analog gages and a thermometer, I like to see the gage flutter on multiple cylinder open drives and like to be able to hook a single gauge on a liquid line when it is 30' from the nearest suction line... Make a wireless transducer and I would be on that stuff like polyester on a used car salesman... If your gonna quote somebody, I recommend you check your digital manifold set and get all the facts in order.......... GT
Who needs a tablet it will have a holigrapic interface. Duh.
Aren't gauge eventually gonna be obsolete anyway? It'll be a tablet talking to the equipment which will show current pressures, and a graph of pressures for the last week so you can see when/what events occurred.
Originally Posted by GT Jets . I appreciate what you are saying, but a $400 manifold set does not make better technicians, not by a long shot, what it will do is prevent them from doing it the "hard way" and handicapping them for their entire career... Because good tools cause bad techs. Do not get gear wrenches they are to time effiecent and easy. I just think its funny when you guys say digital gauges are for dummies or I'm not ever getting those cause I can do math. Your totally missing the point. I'll put this down as a lost cause. Nice install btw I like the platform.
Originally Posted by syndicated What kind of pad/bracket is that? Here's a better shot: Attachment 315791
Originally Posted by GT Jets 70%....You pulling this number out of your, well you know... GT Didn't you know? 88% of all statistics are made up on the spot! As was said before, to each his own. I like analog gauges and manifolds with 3 hoses and two valves. I do use a digital thermometer as it is easier to access what I am trying to measure, and it is fast. I also do check SH and SC on every system. I do get wet bulb with a sling psycrometer, though. *whirls*
Originally Posted by JKopp But California is chasing away all of our industry with CARB and the highest taxes in our country. Interesting perspective and I too understand your points. Gonna go out on a limb and say it was some retired engineer turned politician's pet project gone viral, it always is.... Ever notice that PG&E's energy rebate programs always follow the current environmental issue du jour and have a limited shelf life? Think about it... When I put solar on my dads house and he got his first utility bill the first thing he did was turn down the temperature on the AC... Smoke and mirrors, I have been in California all of my life and work in the heart of Silicon Valley, this is where most of the environmental craziness starts... Done any boiler retrofits for air quality yet? When you retro a natural draft boiler to the new assisted low NOX kits, the efficiency drops by up to sometime 15%...Yeah, that's a step in the right direction.... OP, Sorry for the rant, I will start my own thread to continue the pissing contest...
But California is chasing away all of our industry with CARB and the highest taxes in our country. Interesting perspective and I too understand your points.
Wall mounted ac pads are cool... Attachment 315771
Originally Posted by JKopp Ok I stand corrected it is more like 82% that are not correctly charged. I for one despise government regulations but when they are staring these statistics in the face and are burdened with reducing our state energy consumption one can see why California requires 3rd party HERS inspectors to verify a correct refrigerant charge. We need to be within 3° of factory SC numbers with a TXV system. Not a hard thing to do but surprisingly, our industry lacks the knowledge or know-how to get the job done "correctly". Ref: http://www.proctoreng.com/checkme/technical.html and there are many other studies... "These results are consistent with previous industry research, from new home construction studies in California." You care to back up what you are saying??? Like I said, I don't do ANY residential AC... You aren't backing ANYTHING up. Your link is an advertisement of sorts... There are more commercial/industrial machines using WAYYY more power than there are residential, so your 82% number is likely skewed.... Besides that, if the dumb dumb techs you speak of can't get it right with common tools that have been around for over a century, I doubt buying them a digi kit will make them any smarter or more accurate. It is the trade making idiots that is the problem, NOT the tools.... I have found that when we do refrigerant audits on building we maintain, we typically find two or three units out of dozens that have a charge issue, almost always have leaks that get repaired.... Just because residential central air conditioners have a major efficiency issue don't mean squat to me. There is a much bigger picture. I guess the really dumb part is if you really sit down and do the math with run times and power used and how the home is controlled, you are out to solve energy consumption issues in such a small percentage in the grand scheme of things it is like making sure everybody has the tire pressure on their cars within a few PSI of the factory recommended pressure. Does virtually nothing. I appreciate what you are saying, but a $400 manifold set does not make better technicians, not by a long shot, what it will do is prevent them from doing it the "hard way" and handicapping them for their entire career... I worked with a guy we got from the non union sector a couple of weeks ago and he could not tell me how to check the superheat on a 5 ton package unit, he had been in the trade for seven years. Not a bash against the non union sector, but all he ever did was residential. He knows now. He also knows how to use a thermometer, a PT chart, a sling psychrometer and an analog gauge... I told him to get digital tools when he learns these very reliable pieces of non technology. Sorry for the thread jack.
Originally Posted by GT Jets 70%....You pulling this number out of your, well you know... From my experience you can literally spend an hour dialing in a system for a given load/outside air condition only to have those things change and be one way or another.... I would be willing to bet that number is much closer to 15% in our area... Bear in mind I don't do ANY residential, only heavy commercial and industrial, but still, 70%.... I vow to NEVER own a digi manifold set. If I can no longer get a system to run to it's full potential with a quality thermometer and an analog gauge, it will be time to hang up the tools. Mainly because from what you are saying the systems have become smarter than us..... You my friend were sold a bill of goods. We had to use this POS digi set up for a building survey we did because some property management firm saw some presentation on how you can troubleshoot a system remotely with just the readings from this wonder tool.... Not only that but calculate energy savings based on the repairs. Boy were they mistaken, or I guess taken....The data gathered from these things was worth it's weight in used poop tickets.. If memory serves it was from Honeywell... JMHO We went through later with a few guys with the "primitive method" and found three times the problems. GT Ok I stand corrected it is more like 82% that are not correctly charged. I for one despise government regulations but when they are staring these statistics in the face and are burdened with reducing our state energy consumption one can see why California requires 3rd party HERS inspectors to verify a correct refrigerant charge. We need to be within 3° of factory SC numbers with a TXV system. Not a hard thing to do but surprisingly, our industry lacks the knowledge or know-how to get the job done "correctly". Ref: http://www.proctoreng.com/checkme/technical.html and there are many other studies... "These results are consistent with previous industry research, from new home construction studies in California." You care to back up what you are saying???
Originally Posted by JKopp I could do the math but prefer to perform my job as professional as possible and this includes checking SC and SH every time I hook up to a system. With 70% of the systems installed not correctly charged with refrigerant our industry is in desperate need of digital manifolds and qualified service techs. Something I see first hand everyday. 70%....You pulling this number out of your, well you know... From my experience you can literally spend an hour dialing in a system for a given load/outside air condition only to have those things change and be one way or another.... I would be willing to bet that number is much closer to 15% in our area... Bear in mind I don't do ANY residential, only heavy commercial and industrial, but still, 70%.... I vow to NEVER own a digi manifold set. If I can no longer get a system to run to it's full potential with a quality thermometer and an analog gauge, it will be time to hang up the tools. Mainly because from what you are saying the systems have become smarter than us..... You my friend were sold a bill of goods. We had to use this POS digi set up for a building survey we did because some property management firm saw some presentation on how you can troubleshoot a system remotely with just the readings from this wonder tool.... Not only that but calculate energy savings based on the repairs. Boy were they mistaken, or I guess taken....The data gathered from these things was worth it's weight in used poop tickets.. If memory serves it was from Honeywell... JMHO We went through later with a few guys with the "primitive method" and found three times the problems. GT
Originally Posted by carmon Attachment 315051 one of many this summer...... What kind of pad/bracket is that?
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