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Any thoughts on using quarter inch wall ABS rather than Sched 40? I have a contractor trying to tell me using 1/4 inch abs is fine and just trying to do my due diligence
Thanks

Safety siron pro 3 has an alarm but no dry contacts. contact them maybe they have a commercial version available.

I am a Controls Engineer and I am looking for a radon monitor that has a dry contact that I would be able to use to create an alarm on the front end if the radon gets too high. This is my first time dealing with Radon does any one have any suggestions for a product line that would allow me to do this?

Thanks,

There are elegant ways to correct the problem that have other benefits as well. Circulating air in the home works brilliantly even if you *don't* lower radon levels. Radon isn't the real culprit. It's the radon progeny, specifically polonium ions. Again quoting the BEIR VI report, and by the way, the reason I quote it so much is that it's what EPA's case is built upon:

"Radon itself does not directly cause lung cancer but alpha particles from radon progeny directly damage target lung cells to cause cancer."

The alpha particles are from polonium ions. Ions are charged particles, and they like to stick to things, or "plate out." I spent several thousand dollars buying equipment that would test for progeny so that I could advise my customers based on the true health risk, not the once-removed indicator. All you have to do is circulate the air and those ions bump into the walls, furniture, curtains, ducts, whatever, and stick where they will do no harm. My most extreme example was in a guest house with over 90 pCi/L of radon and progeny consistent within reason of EPA's way of estimating it from radon. When I added a circulating fan, the progeny levels dropped to the level that would be expected from radon levels of less than 3 pCi/L. The potential harm dropped to less than 1/30 of what it had been, and all that was needed was a $15 oscillating fan.

If circulating air is good, circulating fresh air is even better, and it will do far more good for you than some $2000 to $5000 system will.

I don't mean to go off on the radon mitigation industry too much, and yes, most mitigators are stand-alone businesses or tied in to home inspections, but if I can solve one real problem and one questionable problem instead of only the questionable problem, I will do that every time.

Since none of the contractors I have worked with over the past decade do radon mitigation, and I had noticed that there is little being advertized about radon these days, I figured the radon scare had run it's course. Evidently, there are some out there who still have radon mitigation product to sell and so they are keeping the radon issue alive.

One such company was represented at the Comfortech Show this year. I was curious as to how I could teach contractors the value of radon mitigation as another tool in their sales toolbox. As it is, I have been teaching the use of HRV's to keep the houses slightly under pressure to alleviate ever having a radon issue. Since reading teddy bears post, I will also add whole house dehumidification with outside air to that sales toolbox for preventing radon while ridding the home of severe humidification.

Anyway, I stop by the booth for radon mitigation and explain that I consult with HVAC contractors on prevention of radon in the home by pressurizing the homes. The gentleman I was talking with even agreed that positive pressure resolves radon issues.....but....contractors should be selling radon mitigation instead of preventing radon issues in the first place.

OK....the idea is for this person to sell radon mitigation systems and the idea behind my services is to get contractors to have more ways of making money, including dealing with radon. So I tell this guy that there does not seem to be much radon mitigation in my area, where the radon debacle started. He corrects me by telling me there are many companies doing radon mitigation in my area. I come back with the fact that my HVAC contractors do not provide this service, and that I am advising them to use HRV's to dilute the stale air in the home while pressurizing the home. He then tells me that the radon mitigation companies are home inspection and dedicated radon mitigation companies.

Now, I have already told this person that I am already advising contractors to use methods of preventing radon. I have told him that none of the HVAC contractors in my area are doing radon mitigation. He is in a booth at an HVAC show. When I ask him to give me reasons to advise HVAC contractors to mitigate radon rather then to prevent radon, he starts telling me how to sell against what I am already advising.

I finally just took as much information as I could and left. I don't think he ever got my point. I don't think he ever truly understood that I am currently advising ways for HVAC contractors to sell against his product, but am willing to also advise using his product if he could give me a way to approach it as a benefit.

Originally Posted by teddy bear

Everytime, I here of lung cancer death of a non-smoker, I get the ich to go test the home for radon!
Good luck!!
Regards TB

Also from the BEIR VI report:
"The committee's best estimate is that among the 11,000 lung-cancer deaths each year in never-smokers, 2,100 or 2,900, depending on the model used, are radon-related lung cancers."

I personally am convinced after spending a lot of time and effort learning what I can, that the threat is vastly overblown, and not just because agencies account for 117 deaths for every 100 that occur. One of the skeptics battle cries is "where are the bodies?" because when you add up the death statistics from all the things that allegedly kill people, it's a lot more than the actual number of deaths.

EPA wants you to mitigate if your radon levels are above 4 pCi/L, and to consider it if it's over 2 pCi/L.

In my own home, after my research, I would not consider mitigating at less than 20 pCi/L, and probably wouldn't even at 50 pCi/L, although I would refresh my reasearch. I might even charge admission (that's a joke, son) - try googling "radon spa" just for fun.

I have known people (at least 1 friend and 1 customer who wanted to protect her young family from radon, which she assumed was what was killing her) who, to the best of my knowledge, have never smoked and yet died from lung cancer. That breaks my heart. But I have known more who died from auto accidents and other items on the list of leading preventable causes of death. I won't go so far as to say radon mitigation is always a waste, but I will express very strong doubts in many, probably most cases. At the same time I have met people in the business that I think were very sincere in believing they were doing something good.

By the way, if anyone is serious about doing this work, PM me and I'll sell you my continuous radon monitor and if you're really serious, my radon progeny test equipment (ERPISU) as well.

I am also am an old EPA certified radon mitigator. Depressurizing slabs works for extreme cases.
Pressurizng the basement with main floor air reduces infiltration from the soil into the basement in most cases.
Using a ventilating whole house dehumidier with enough fresh to provide an air change in 5-6 hours and a 150 cfm of mainfloor floor is very effective at reducing basement radon levels while maintaining <50%RH in the basement and rest of the home. This concept provides extreme postive pressure and fresh air throughout the home.
An ERV/HRV will make the home wet during wet cool weather and excessively dry during cold dry weather. An unbalance HRV will not maintain positive pressure in a basement with a strong stack effect during cold weather.
I have had some good ones. The best was an 2,500 sqft. earth home in WI. We reduced 35 pc to 2-3 pc with continuous 175 cfm of make-up with a whole house ventilating dehumidifier. Plus we eliminated a serious mold problem.
All that was missing from the radon problems where the bodies. Everytime, I here of lung cancer death of a non-smoker, I get the ich to go test the home for radon!
Good luck!!
Regards TB

Originally Posted by DirkRoper

I am getting ready to install and ERV in my home with the exhaust coming from the bathrooms and the supply going into the living and/or sleeping quarters of my home. My intent is to balance it so that I maintain a very slight positive pressure in my home. I will lower CO2 levels without as large an energy penalty and prevent soil gases of any kind from entering my home. Anything that does sneak in will be diluted. I personally am convinced that this will do far more for my health and comfort than any traditional radon mitigation system.

An Ex-Radon Guy

This is precisely what I plan on doing in the house I recently bought, only with an HRV because I am in PA.

Thanks for some great information and resources. Much of what you posted, I did not know.

I used to be in the radon business, but I got out. I could write a book on why, but the bottom line is that I didn't believe I was providing any value to my customers. I had a run-in with EPA at a school where they wrote a letter that was in direct opposition to their published material that scared the school and parents enough that they *removed* free-standing HEPA filtration systems in classrooms.

The alleged death statistics are from models. One synopsis I read of the causes of lung cancer managed to account for as many as 117 deaths for every 100 people who died. I guess they counted some people multiple times.

From the public summary of the BEIR VI report: "Perhaps one-third of the radon-attributed cases (about 4% of the total lung-cancer deaths) would be avoided if all homes had concentrations below the Environmental Protection Agency's action gudeline of [4 pCi/L]; of these, about 87% would be ever-smokers. It can be noted that the deaths from radon-attributable lung cancer in smokers could most efficiently be reduced through tobacco-control measures, in that most of the radon-related deaths among smokers would not have occurred if the victims had not smoked." (From Health Effect of Exposure to Radon BEIR VI page 19.

So if I can save 1/3 of the people who allegedly die by spending billions nationwide, or I can save most of 87% by convincing people not to smoke (or accept their risk if they choose to do so), what should I do?

According to CDC somewhere between 100,000 and 365,000 people die per year because of obesity. I can save them money on food, make them feel better, and add more years to their lives if I can convince them to eat better and exercise more.

The number that allegedly die from the flu is 35,000 or so per year. While not a scientific study, we noticed that student sick days dropped by over 50% in a December to December comparison without the HEPA filtration in the classroom during the first December, compared to with it the second December (which was a year full of news reports of higher than average flu cases).

The guy I studied under for my radon certification and the state's government guru (who must both be very concerned about lung cancer, right?) went out to have a cigarette together during breaks during training sessions I attended.

EPA's risk model assumes that you are exposed to the level of radon in question for 18 hours per day for 70 years.

Bernard Cohen did a study to see if the "linear no threshold (LNT)" model EPA uses was valid. He concluded that it was not. In fact, he found that across the country counties that had above average radon levels had below average lung cancer deaths. Google radon and hormesis for some interesting ideas. Dr. Cohen did not claim any proof that radon was good for you, he simply concluded that the LNT model was invalid.

Ultimately, after a lot of research, I decided that I was doing virtually no good for my customers.

I am getting ready to install and ERV in my home with the exhaust coming from the bathrooms and the supply going into the living and/or sleeping quarters of my home. My intent is to balance it so that I maintain a very slight positive pressure in my home. I will lower CO2 levels without as large an energy penalty and prevent soil gases of any kind from entering my home. Anything that does sneak in will be diluted. I personally am convinced that this will do far more for my health and comfort than any traditional radon mitigation system.

See what I mean about a book? And I left a butt-load of stuff I'd like to say out...

An Ex-Radon Guy

Thanks all,

i didn't know i was actually in a "high conc" zone

Radon is one of the densest of gases on the periodic table. It is 8 times heavier then air, so it must be brought into the house from a negative pressure condition.

This is why an HRV works so well. The more negative pressure sources, such as bathroom and kitchen fans, that are bringing in as much air as they are removing, the less negative pressure your house becomes.

Along with an HRV/ERV, I recommend a 4" ducting from the outside to your return air ducting to maintain a nuetral pressure when the blower is not operating and a slightly positive pressure when it is. I also recommend ECM blowers utilizing the lowest possible speed for constant air to keep a continuous air exchange in the home and to keep the home at a constant, slight positive pressure. This will greatly increase all IAQ issues.

Radon levels in a home change continuously according to wet or dry soil or freezing ground conditions, barometric pressure, indoor fan use, etc.
I have Radon in my home and have been monitoring it for years electronically.
I first installed a sub slab ventilation system to bring the level from 15 down to below 4. It worked fine until January when the short term level rose to above 10 and stayed there until spring when it dropped back down when the ground thawed. The level also rose again when it rained for several days.
I then added a 200 cfm HRV to the basement. I can now keep the level below 2 most of the year, but in winter it creeps back up to 4. Frozen ground seems to be the largest contributor to the level rising in the basement.
Radon as just about everything follows the path of least resistance and if the path of least resistance is through the foundation it will enter the home.

My foundation is tarred block on the outside latex painted on the inside, all cracks and joints sealed.

.
Some regions are of more concern:

http://www.radongas.com/radon_map.htm

..

Roboteq,

Not wanting to disagree, but this kind of thinking is why I never tested my house before. I built the house 20 years ago. It has what I thought to be a tight basement which has a make-up air duct. I did pressure tests a long time ago and believed it to be pressure-neutral to the outside. With exception of a center cut in the floor, there are no visible cracks and the block walls are painted. So I was completely surprised when I got the test results.

The first of two tests was a charcoal canister bought from Home Depot. The results came back 7.9. Later testing with the continuous monitor showed a 48 hour average of 10.3. EPA says to mitigate over 4.0 and in Europe it is 2.8.

The mitigation system dropped my number to 0.7.

Though not certified until yesterday, I have had the monitors since the first of June and have been practicing on friends' and family members' homes. The results seem to be random and unpredictable. Soil type may be the only thing that would cause me to venture a guess before testing. Homes thought to be on gravel soil tested high while homes thought to be on clay soil tested low. But how do you know for sure what is under the house?

I never heard the radon was heavier than air. I do know the homes I tested with central AC seemed to have higher levels on the first and second floors making me believe it easily moves around with air.

After dealing with ozone depletion and man-made global warning which I think are fictitious, I was skeptical about this as well. The training and time spent playing with the monitors changed that. I will not try to scare anyone into testing their home, but will give information and provide the services.

Over here in Eastern PA, where the radon hype started when a TMI worker set off contamination alarms going "TO" work, the radon business has dropped off to nothing.

If your house is not under a negative pressure and not sealed too tightly, radon won't come into the house because it is an heavier then air gas. We have to pull radon into the house, which is why testing can vary by massive amounts just from opening a door or window.

Originally Posted by jimj

Tell us more!

I hope there will be much to tell!

It will take advertising to raise public awareness, but I feel it will be a needed service to provide. The EPA is discussing a plan to test/mitigate all government buildings and start a public awareness campaign.

According to the EPA 21,000 people in the US die each year from radon caused lung cancer. I don't know how they determine this.

Radon testing and mitigation seems to be a natural fit for HVAC pros.

We will see.

Originally Posted by TimVogt

My certification is for testing and mitigation. I decided to try it after hearing a neighbor's house tested high and testing my own. After my results showed high levels, I found out no one in the area offers the systems. The closest mitigator is 35 miles away.

I currently rent two continous monitors.

Tell us more!

My certification is for testing and mitigation. I decided to try it after hearing a neighbor's house tested high and testing my own. After my results showed high levels, I found out no one in the area offers the systems. The closest mitigator is 35 miles away.

I currently rent two continous monitors.

Originally Posted by TimVogt

Any fellow HVAC professionals offering radon services? I just received my state certification today.

We put in a few radon fans per year. Do you do the testing or sell them a kit?

Originally Posted by TimVogt

Any fellow HVAC professionals offering radon services? I just received my state certification today.

jeeeez that was big in the 80's then nothing, i guess it's making a come back!