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Blue Thunder Sounds like my first wife!
Blue Thunder
SEDavis To the point... I am an independent consultant with 25+ years working with Building automation systems from across the industry and around the country. At one time or another I have worked for most of them. My experienced opinion... The FX-40 is the best choice if you already have existing N2 devices. The FX can be serviced and supported by any number of vendors, is the least expensive option, and is a user friendly system. The NAE is much more cumbersome to use and setup, and is generally more expensive. The NAE is also only available through the local JCI branch office which locks you into a sole provider for service and support. The N30 is no longer in production so cannot be replaced if fails All existing JCI N2 devices are compatible with the FX40 and it can also talk to existing N30's over BACnet if desired. (Don't know why you'd want to though) If existing JCI N2 is not an issue, then you can select any Tridium Jace based on controller and point counts you plan on If it's the M3 graphics your hung up on --- Iconics is the company that wrote the graphics package for the N30\M3, and their current product can be incorporated into the FX40 graphics (Again - Don't know why you'd want to) You will need FX-40's with "enterprise connectivity" (LP-FX4021)if you want to share data between 40's (Outdoor air for example). If not use the LP-FX4020 If you plan on heavy trending and alarming get the server package. It is simple the full blown software package running on a PC that is dedicated to your system. This allows archiving to the hard drive of the PC. You would not need any other software if you purchase the server package. I have many sites on line in different parts the country and have permission from my clients to demo these on occasion. Please reply if you'd care to " go for a drive"
SEDavis
HalreyAl: If I understand clearly... FX Supervisor (for history stored on a PC) is included in FX Server only. Because Workbench Pro is only to programming tool doesn't have this feature. Workbench is the basic version Workbench Pro is including the basic Workbench. FX Server is including the Workbench Pro and it is the top end software running on a pc not only for trend histories but it may also act as a FX40 gateway to share data/points between different FXs. Is it right? Thanks
About the FX Supervisor (may be I missed a part in the FX training) but what I remember is the datalog history (alarms, trends, etc) is located in the FX40 memory. The maximum history I get is around 1 month max. Could we have a FX Supervisor running on a computer to pull trends and build larger trend histories? Yes. Is it part of the Workbench, Workbench Pro or Workbench Server? FX Server is the JCI version, FX Server includes Workbench. FX Server
HalreyAl: About the slow graphics on the FX40 the refresh rate seams to have hard time to pull many VMAs and VAVs over the N2. HalreyAl and freddy-b: I understand our point about the confusion it may make. We had so much problem with our firsts installations of FX40, my boss always want to have the N30 instead (if possible). I try to get the whole picture to explain clearly the poors and cons of boths N30 or FX40. Also why the problems we got with our firsts FX40 installations should now be resolved now? About the FX Supervisor (may be I missed a part in the FX training) but what I remember is the datalog history (alarms, trends, etc) is located in the FX40 memory. The maximum history I get is around 1 month max. Could we have a FX Supervisor running on a computer to pull trends and build larger trend histories? Is it part of the Workbench, Workbench Pro or Workbench Server? Regards,
The graphics are lot faster with the N30 with its 1200 points then he FX80 with 800 points. Don't know what you mean by that, loading? If so, the M3 graphics are on the PC, the FX's are in the panel, so data transfer rate/amount would explain that. When releasing overwrite in the FX40 sometimes work sometimes not. Never have seen this. This might be an operational training issue. Historical Datas, datas acquisitions and stats, the FX40 is limited to its memory, the N30 with Access Historian lets us back data easily for years back of logs. You're comparing apples to oranges. Get FX supervisor and it will do the same, yet better. Alarms in the N30 works fine, with the FX40 we had difficulties making the alarms working properly. Again, I would attribute this to a training issue/learning curve. I kinda agree with freddy-b. What was the exercise for?
Originally Posted by hvac-al Ok, ok guys.... Let's get back to the topic now. I shared with you 1 of our concern regarding the FX40 and JCI support. But we have other concerns...... We have many sites with N30 and M3 with more than 1200 points per unit. We have some smaller sites with FX40 with around 200 to 300 points. One of them have about 800 points. The graphics are lot faster with the N30 with its 1200 points then he FX80 with 800 points. When releasing overwrite in the FX40 sometimes work sometimes not. This never happen in N30. Historical Datas, datas acquisitions and stats, the FX40 is limited to its memory, the N30 with Access Historian lets us back data easily for years back of logs. Alarms in the N30 works fine, with the FX40 we had difficulties making the alarms working properly. Our business is really oriented on complete industrial building automation (including mechanical rooms, compressors, productions, etc) and less standard institutional HVAC. Regards It sounds like you dont need any input from us. You know N30's. You like them so whats the purpose of the thread? BTW I dont think its possible yet to expose your fx-40 points into M3 with the johnsonized Jace lagging behind at Rev 3.0.106, but eventually you probably will be able too.
Ok, ok guys.... Let's get back to the topic now. I shared with you 1 of our concern regarding the FX40 and JCI support. But we have other concerns...... We have many sites with N30 and M3 with more than 1200 points per unit. We have some smaller sites with FX40 with around 200 to 300 points. One of them have about 800 points. The graphics are lot faster with the N30 with its 1200 points then he FX80 with 800 points. When releasing overwrite in the FX40 sometimes work sometimes not. This never happen in N30. Historical Datas, datas acquisitions and stats, the FX40 is limited to its memory, the N30 with Access Historian lets us back data easily for years back of logs. Alarms in the N30 works fine, with the FX40 we had difficulties making the alarms working properly. Our business is really oriented on complete industrial building automation (including mechanical rooms, compressors, productions, etc) and less standard institutional HVAC. Regards
Hey, FXDude, you took the words right out my mouth!! I, too, have engineered, installed, and programmed plenty of both NAE's and FX-40's - and the FX-40 IS far superior. I understand Blue Thunder's need to listen to his boss, but you don't build ANY credibility by qualifying your statements with "as I am told it is". You CAN add credibility by telling us who all these "other control companies that are copying the NAEs" are. Man, that was funny... Ignore freddy's rudeness if you wish, but don't ignore the wisdom...
Fx40 I have also engineered, installed, programmed both the NAE and the FX40. The FX40 is far Superior to an NAE. FXdude
Fx40
Originally Posted by freddy-b you go grasshopper frebby-d I think I'll just ignore you rudeness.
you go grasshopper
OK wrench, i'll try. Just so excited with all of this neat stuff i'm starting to work with. It's no wonder why we are the King of the Hill. I can't understand the frebby-halrey type meanies. They seem to like the 'entry level system' (as I am told it is) but maybe we can convert them eventually.
Originally Posted by BlueThunder halrey & frebby Do you have any experience with NAEs? Since it sounds like you are not a branch tech, it kind of proves the black eye theory. I am very excited with the technology that we are providing, and from what I am told, so are all the other control companies that are copying the NAEs. I DO NOT USE CRACK. Unfortunately I have seen more than enough NAE's to know that they are extreme pieces of crap. As far as copying them......thats just funny and not even worth the effort to respond. The only black eye theory around here is the one in the middle of your CRACK after the IndyBlues of the world get done with ya. Frebby-D
Originally Posted by BlueThunder halrey & frebby Do you have any experience with NAEs? Since it sounds like you are not a branch tech, it kind of proves the black eye theory. I am very excited with the technology that we are providing, and from what I am told, so are all the other control companies that are copying the NAEs. I DO NOT USE CRACK. Mr. Thunder. A little advice, FWIW. When entering a pool for the first time, wade around a bit at first to test the waters. Don't just jump right in and start pissing all over the place, as you will just be pissing on your self. Since you asked about experience, you may want to check out this thread to get a feel for the neighborhood. http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=148289 Originally Posted by BlueThunder ...and from what I am told.. You work for JCI! Tell me you don't believe everything you are told! I know you are new there, but it shouldn't take you but about a day to figure that one out! I wish you well grasshopper.
Properly Engineered ASC A properly engineered/programmed job, will have all of the ASC's (UNT,DX9100) programmed so they can work in the stand-alone mode in case of loss of N2. Global programming should be minimal. Originally Posted by hvac-al Thanks all for your input....... The current UNTs and DXs have some cross JCBasic links but those routines need to be completly revised. Most of them have not be reviewed ot modified since the first installation of the NCM. We want the current UNTs and DXs more standalone as possible (if the N2 break the units will be able to handle the job) right now they are too tight to the NCM. We want to use the Supervisor (NCM, N30, FX40, etc) at the top layer as much of possible. To resume your informations...... NCM, N50, M5, NAE are stricly available for Johnson's Control and ABCS M30, M3, FX40 are available to all Johnson's Control resellers (including JCI and ABCS) It seams the winner is FX40 .... but we are still concern about the fact JCI always refer to Tridium for support and devellopment. Regards
Properly Engineered ASC
Nae Originally Posted by BlueThunder halrey & frebby Do you have any experience with NAEs? Since it sounds like you are not a branch tech, it kind of proves the black eye theory. I am very excited with the technology that we are providing, and from what I am told, so are all the other control companies that are copying the NAEs. I DO NOT USE CRACK. I have engineered, installed, programmed both the NAE and the FX40. By far, the FX40 is the best. If you are a JCI Employee, you have NO experience with the FX40. Therefore, you cannot give an educated comparison.
Nae
halrey & frebby Do you have any experience with NAEs? Since it sounds like you are not a branch tech, it kind of proves the black eye theory. I am very excited with the technology that we are providing, and from what I am told, so are all the other control companies that are copying the NAEs. I DO NOT USE CRACK.
I agree with all the FX40 votes and reasonings. It seams the winner is FX40 .... but we are still concern about the fact JCI always refer to Tridium for support and devellopment. That's because 99% of it is Tridium. You wouldn't want it any other way.
Forget The Nae Go with the FX40.........Less expensive........A HELL OF A LOT BETTER FX40 graphics are FANTASTIC The entire system is user friendly and easy to learn.
Forget The Nae
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