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Originally Posted by prounionelp

On a different note, if you're a SMW HVAC Ducting Installation Journeyman it's highly unlikely that you'd become a UA HVACR Journeyman when switching Unions. Even though both Unions represent HVAC(R), it's almost as changing professions. I think one would be lucky to go from SMW to PT or vice-versa & be brought in @ 70%! Let me know of I'm wrong.

I do agree with you there.

It is also just about impossible to go from a sheet metal journeyman to the service classification within the same local, even if you are capable of doing some of/enough of the work (obviously service covers lots of equipment). It also works the other way: service to sheet metal fabricator/installer.

Now, if your company is willing to sponsor a 597 apprentice that has a lot of sheet metal and some basic service background, you should email me.

On a different note, if you're a SMW HVAC Ducting Installation Journeyman it's highly unlikely that you'd become a UA HVACR Journeyman when switching Unions. Even though both Unions represent HVAC(R), it's almost as changing professions. I think one would be lucky to go from SMW to PT or vice-versa & be brought in @ 70%! Let me know of I'm wrong. A BT-R Journeyman can't even be dispatched to a shop as an MES Journeyman. Please be aware that I'm using National designations, as some Locals still call MESJ - BT-R Journeyman, Refrigeration Pipefitter or even my personal favorite, Servicefitter.

I think so, but I still don't see anything happening.

The sheet metal union won't give up their service and T&B people to a separate HVACR union.

The UA won't give up their HVAC people for a separate HVACR union.

The electricians union won't give up their BAS people either.

Why? Well, maybe you haven't noticed, but union rank and file membership nationwide is declining and union organization management is not.

Individual union organizations won't parcel off work that they currently have within their jurisdiction and send it off to another organization. This action will cause a reduction in membership. A reduction in dues receipts. A reduction in market share for each separate union organization in question. There are other ramifications, but I'm not going into that here.

Other people in "unrelated" unions are not members of "your union" nor are they working under someone elses collective bargaining agreement, they are just working together in a combination shop environment as a member of their respective trade union.

So yes, I see an additional HVACR union splintering the trade further.

Don't forget about the Nexstar Network and the ABC folks. While they may not be "union" as we know it, like it or not, they are organized and training HVAC people.

Right now, the sheet metal (SMWIA), pipefitters (UA) and electrical unions (IBEW) all have some type of HVAC program, and it may be nationwide. I wouldn't be surprised if the carpenters have something going on, too. I don't know who had HVACR "first" (SMWIA or UA), but neither will give in now. Too much money and politics at stake to merge nicely... but one will take it from the other (it being HVACR service) or dominate market share at some point.

Just to clarify, I do not see the UA teaching sheet metal layout any more than I see the SMWIA teaching building trades (BT) pipefitting or the IBEW teaching BT pipefitting or sheet metal layout... but right now it seems that HVACR service can be taught by any of those organizations. That's where they are getting the new blood- the apprentices signing up for the HVACR service programs. None of the unions will just give that up.

Originally Posted by neophytes serendipity

Sheet metal is about $41 + bennies. Total pkg is ~$65 ish. Do not have a current wage sheet.

I see a HVACR or HVACR Service union further splintering the industry. The existing building trades + service will be more limited to building trades only. Smaller number of people working.

My email is in my profile.

You really think so? I'm talking about having the entire HVACR (Refrigerationfitting & HVACR Service) & Pipefitting from the Pipe Trades Union, we really have nothing to do w/plumbing or sprinklerfitting, having the Ducting & the Ducting Auditors (T&B) from the Sheet Metal Works Union, we really have nothing to do w/decorative sheet metal or metal roofing, having the BAS from the Electricians Union, we really have nothing to do w/high voltage wiring, all w/an HVACR Union instead. Also getting anybody out from the Operating Engineers Union & other Unions unrelated to our trade. Do you get where I'm going w/this?

I think the Commercial Service Tech will be by the firsts of April. The MES Serviceman is not a card, it's an NSMA classification. Some Locals do use that title too though. In 597, you'd probably be issued a B-Card even though it has no effect in the shop. NSMA signatories don't have to sign any Local agreements.

Is the proposed Mes card something that is going to go into action soon?

Originally Posted by mpr73

As stated before SMW is at 41 on the check. What is B card wages at? what kind of difference are we talking, and how do i explain that to the wife, LOL
I am always interested in working and working 40+ for slightly lower wage is better than 41 and only doing 2-3 days a week. My email is in my profile o feel free to end any info that way too. Who knows maybe when I get back into town the boss will have more work lined up

597's B-Card is approximately $33/hr. Our proposed MES Serviceman would be around $35-36.

Originally Posted by prounionelp

Honestly if you're Sheet Metal Works - HVAC, but you're doing Pipe Trades - HVACR work, then you're going to fall out of favor w/the L#597 signatories.
My shop wants to expand real soon into commercial refrigeration, maybe you'd be interested. That's a MES Serviceman, which is an L#597 B-Card equivalent. The wage is about $3 over B-Card. Let me know if I'm not offending you.

As stated before SMW is at 41 on the check. What is B card wages at? what kind of difference are we talking, and how do i explain that to the wife, LOL
I am always interested in working and working 40+ for slightly lower wage is better than 41 and only doing 2-3 days a week. My email is in my profile o feel free to end any info that way too. Who knows maybe when I get back into town the boss will have more work lined up

Sheet metal is about $41 + bennies. Total pkg is ~$65 ish. Do not have a current wage sheet.

I see a HVACR or HVACR Service union further splintering the industry. The existing building trades + service will be more limited to building trades only. Smaller number of people working.

My email is in my profile.

I believe HVACR can have it's own Union. Right now, we have the majority in the Pipe Trades Union, then some in the Sheet Metal Works Union, a few (BAS Techs) in the Electricians Union, & even a handful in the Operating Engineers Union. Shoot there might even be some in what seems to be other completely unrelated locals!
L#597's Service Journeyman (A-Card) is approximately $44/hr on-the-check & $24 in fringes including a monster $14/hr to retirement. Is the Sheet Metal Works Journeyman just as high?

Originally Posted by prounionelp

Did you mean that both Sheet Metal Works & Pipe Trades Locals in Chicago have HVAC service apprenticeships? If so, all that does is create problems in the field. Just look @ Cement Masons for example, both the Plasterers & Cement Masons Union, & the Bricklayers Union claim these workers.
Just food for thought, what do you think about an HVACR Union? Do you think it's possible?
Yes, the shop is looking to expand into the commercial & engineered service sectors. Right now, we only attract non-union guys & true C-Card guys this is because we're @ the limitations of the shop - residential/light commercial up to 25 tons.

Yes, 265, 73, 597 and 501 all cover "HVAC service". "HVAC service" is a pretty big playing field. There are probably supposed to be some boundaries- the 5 ton thing sticks in my mind.

Both 501 and 597 have marquee signs advertising HVAC and HVAC contractors... not necessarily "plumbing" or "pipefitting". 501 has a HVAC training facility at Farnsworth and 56. I have been inside of the 597 facility, and it sure looks like they are more than capable of teaching HVAC stuff there.

The electricians also have a HVAC training program.

Yes, I see issues with this. But, I do not see a merged HVACR union yet. Too much politics and the members that get merged will be the ones holding the short end of the stick as far as pensions go. New members of a merged entity will be fine.

The sheet metal people changed their 4 year service apprenticeship to a 5 year. Yup, it got rid of the lower paid service classification, but I suspect that the service guys are working fewer hours because of it.

I hear that 597 has a lower paid service classification, but I have not been able to confirm that.

I am considering 597. Maybe a little late, but... it is a possibility.

Originally Posted by neophytes serendipity

The Chicago sheet metal locals both have Service Apprenticeship programs.

Not exactly sure where the "cutoff" between sheet metal service and pipefitter service is supposed to be, but 5 tons sticks in my head. Sheet metal gets 5 tons and below, pipefitters get above 5 ton split systems.

prounionelp, You guys looking?

Did you mean that both Sheet Metal Works & Pipe Trades Locals in Chicago have HVAC service apprenticeships? If so, all that does is create problems in the field. Just look @ Cement Masons for example, both the Plasterers & Cement Masons Union, & the Bricklayers Union claim these workers.
Just food for thought, what do you think about an HVACR Union? Do you think it's possible?
Yes, the shop is looking to expand into the commercial & engineered service sectors. Right now, we only attract non-union guys & true C-Card guys this is because we're @ the limitations of the shop - residential/light commercial up to 25 tons.

The Chicago sheet metal locals both have Service Apprenticeship programs.

Not exactly sure where the "cutoff" between sheet metal service and pipefitter service is supposed to be, but 5 tons sticks in my head. Sheet metal gets 5 tons and below, pipefitters get above 5 ton split systems.

prounionelp, You guys looking?

Honestly if you're Sheet Metal Works - HVAC, but you're doing Pipe Trades - HVACR work, then you're going to fall out of favor w/the L#597 signatories.
My shop wants to expand real soon into commercial refrigeration, maybe you'd be interested. That's a MES Serviceman, which is an L#597 B-Card equivalent. The wage is about $3 over B-Card. Let me know if I'm not offending you.

Wow a sheet metal worker doing service work ?? You are a rare breed..

Climate Pros has the most of the supermarket accounts in the area. Last I heard they were on a hiring freeze.

Refrigeration/comm hvac work in chicagoland???

I know this is slow season but after talking with my service mgr it may not be a bad idea to look around.

Anyone out there know of any refrigeration/commercial shops that need guys?
Currently I have been doing convenient store work. I do not have experience on rack systems but would like to learn and get into some supermarket refrigeration. I am a service journeyman out of SMW265 ,I know that a lot of places prefer 597 or 501 but cant change that now.

any leads would be appreciated
Thanks