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Originally Posted by tedkidd

I just went to a "Dry Climate Home Performance Contractors Forum" at Lake Comanche. What a great area you live in. I also went to the CEC in Sacramento.

There are some really sharp folks you may want to connect with who can help when you run into these problems, which sound likely now that you are on the performance path. You might consider getting into Energy Upgrade California.

Let me know if you want introductions.

Thanks for the tip however the only reason i had this issue was because i bid the job before seeing it and won't be doing that again. I have been doing energy saving systems for homeowners for nearly two years now and not had one of them question my sizing because i am doing manual j on the spot.

Now for my soapbox:

As for energy upgrade California luckily i stay very busy without having to get involved with any of these programs. It seems to be all the big companies around here that are involved with it and good for them, its just not for me and my company. I know it sounds like a great program on the surface, who wouldn't want $5000 plus in rebates for upgrading their house, more energy efficiency plus its an easy sell for the contractor. The catch is you have to spend $25k plus to get all of the rebates unless your poor they will just pay for it with my tax dollars and utility costs.

I will not get involved as a matter of principal with that program or any other that directly jacks up the electric rates on the wealthier parts of the cities or residents to fund its rebate program. Taken directly from their site :"Funding comes from the utilities' ratepayers under the auspices of the California Public Utilities Commission in addition to incremental funding from the Department of Energy." There are some wealthier parts of this city that are paying over $600 per month for their electric and using less kwh than i use in my little home.

I am sick and tired of seeing our rates increase in the name of energy efficiency. Our residents have spent millions on the installation of solar panels and now that the utilities are getting all this free electricity they decide to not only take our tier 2 pricing to 18 cents per kwh but now are proposing a special summer rate between the hours of 1pm and 6pm of .75 cents per kwh, a 300% increase during those hours, INSANE! It seems the more efficient our city gets the more they bill us. But they think as long as they are offering huge rebates no one will notice that they took the money from us already and are just giving it back another way. The best part is the rebates on most systems that are installed around here don't even cover the full permit process so you are not really saving anything and thats why most companies fly under the radar not pulling permits.

I am all for saving energy but it needs to pencil and robbing the rich or the feds taking us deeper in debt to pay for it has to stop. The average system around here already costs $9,500 installed once you add all the permits, fee's,etc in and i don't care how efficient your system is you'll never get that money back in less than 20 years.

Sorry for my rant but i wish the gestapo in charge would start looking at things more logically instead of just digging us a deeper hole and robbing the affluent all in the name of efficiency.

Originally Posted by Barrettservices

Have a client with a large new home (3560) being built that I bid 6 months ago and listening to the customer requests I sized the systems at 84kbtu total like every other company and got the job. It is now time to do the install and I have since learned the value of right sizing equipment and not using the ol' 500sqft method anymore.

The issue is that I have now taken a closer look at this home and title 24 (prepared by an independent company) calls for a minimum of 36kbtu. I now want to revise the system down for efficiency and longevity issues to 72kbtu which will only change the condensers down a half ton each, no change on the furnace coil to stick with the same seer/eer ratings and maintain proper airflow.

I just went to a "Dry Climate Home Performance Contractors Forum" at Lake Comanche. What a great area you live in. I also went to the CEC in Sacramento.

There are some really sharp folks you may want to connect with who can help when you run into these problems, which sound likely now that you are on the performance path. You might consider getting into Energy Upgrade California.

Let me know if you want introductions.

I've had the same dilemma before. In the end its there money to spend, just nicely tell them the possible risks and get it done.

Originally Posted by bearfromobx

Most of the two stage furnaces arn't 50/50... I've got no problem with an 80/20 being two stage as long as my design specs are the same as the units'...

Heatwise that works, but in cooling there are more part load hours than peak, so a 50/100 is almost as good as a true vari speed comp.

The biggest local company already installs resi water chillers called aquachill. They are very efficient but upfront cost, maintenance and subpar warranty makes them unattractive to most buyers. They did a whole housing tract with them fifteen years ago and all of them were replaced within 10 years and the customers hated them.

Modulating gas trains

Originally Posted by bearfromobx

I wonder if the Cali proposal to ban the bypass damper will bring on the use of true VAV in small capacity residential and light commercial systems? I've got a zoned system which has cost the facility a fortune to keep in operation and beats the HP systems it's attached with to death.

Minisplits and/or residential water chillers will be the way of the residential zoning future, one variable capacity condenser serving several "heads". It costs more upfront but the energy savings are considerable.

Originally Posted by ACFIXR

Is there any 2 stage equipment out there? I don't consider a 20% shed a true 2 stage do you? To me a true 2 stage would be a 50/100 % not 80/100.

Most of the two stage furnaces arn't 50/50... I've got no problem with an 80/20 being two stage as long as my design specs are the same as the units'...

Originally Posted by 54regcab

Electric rates in the US are very low compared to other parts of the world, and our area has low electric rates compared to the rest of the country. Payback time is too long for Inverter drive equipment. It's difficult to get people to go above the minimum 13 SEER, 2 speed AC units are almost like a unicorn around here. 75% of all electric homes in our area use 10KW to 20KW air handlers as the primary form of heat. Electric rates are between 5 and 46 cents per KWH depending on time of year/day and pricing plan.

I wonder if the Cali proposal to ban the bypass damper will bring on the use of true VAV in small capacity residential and light commercial systems? I've got a zoned system which has cost the facility a fortune to keep in operation and beats the HP systems it's attached with to death.

Originally Posted by Barrettservices

Update: the homeowner listened to reason once I got them away from their "expert" contractor. Part of my persuasion was to offer them a personal company guarantee that the system would cool to acceptable expectations or i would change it at no charge to them for up to ten years. Gotta stand behind your recommendations no matter what. That convinced them immediately once I was willing to stand behind it for so long even with the generals so called expertise advising against my so called undersizing.

Good move Bubba - Covers all the bases

Originally Posted by beenthere

Check out Nordyne IQ units, and carrier greenspeed.

i knew about the nordyne unit (i've never liked nordyne equipment), the greenspeed i didn't know about.

Originally Posted by beenthere

Trane 20i.

And American Standard, my mind was stuck in package unit mode................

Originally Posted by davidj001

i wonder why none of the american manufactures have started using the inverter technology in the central a/c equipment. it can't run the cost that much more

Electric rates in the US are very low compared to other parts of the world, and our area has low electric rates compared to the rest of the country. Payback time is too long for Inverter drive equipment. It's difficult to get people to go above the minimum 13 SEER, 2 speed AC units are almost like a unicorn around here. 75% of all electric homes in our area use 10KW to 20KW air handlers as the primary form of heat. Electric rates are between 5 and 46 cents per KWH depending on time of year/day and pricing plan.

Originally Posted by davidj001

i wonder why none of the american manufactures have started using the inverter technology in the central a/c equipment. it can't run the cost that much more

Check out Nordyne IQ units, and carrier greenspeed.

i wonder why none of the american manufactures have started using the inverter technology in the central a/c equipment. it can't run the cost that much more

Trane 20i.

Originally Posted by jpb2

Seems like the simple solution to me.

Is there any 2 stage equipment out there? I don't consider a 20% shed a true 2 stage do you? To me a true 2 stage would be a 50/100 % not 80/100.

Originally Posted by Barrettservices

All of us submitted our bids before the homeowner provided the title 24 (manual J) Docs so we were all shooting in the dark.

This is what happens in cases like this when shooting in the dark. I really couldn't help you because the proposal has already gone out in what you promise them.
Basically it looks like you're trying to change the proposal if I'm understanding you. It's kind of late now.
But, maybe you can lessen their warranty to one year due to the issue your having now..

Originally Posted by rucomfy101

Just a thought, have you considered two-stage equipment?

Seems like the simple solution to me.

Just make sure you manage their expectations, especially since it's a larger home. IT will take a long longer to heat up and cool off than they might be used to. To recover from a 5F setback in 2 hours, a home that large would need 2X the proper equipment size. The realistic expectation is 1) multiple zones with staggered setbacks 2) using setbacks primarily for comfort and limiting them to about 2-3F and getting your savings from proper equipment sizing.

Having a comfortable and efficeint system is like imagining having a car with an on/off switch not a modulating throttle. TO make it comfortable ot ride in an get good economy, it will need an engine as small as possible. If you want the equivalent of a modulating throttle, you'll need a zoned chilled and hot water system.