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Apparently it was done already and found to be acceptable

bungle

anyway to get the R123 analyzed as well?


r404a

I have no idea, as I only have seen the machine this week. In my estimate probably never.

When was the last time an eddy current was done? Is the cdw or chw pressure higher than the machine? Could also be a tube issue.

I agree 100% that these are 2 different issues.

On Monday I am going to get an oil analysis done and go from there. Thanks for all the excellent tips. I'll keep you posted....

bungle
I remember a YT years back, R123, that had refrigerant that was a greeninsh tint. Thought the tubes were coming apart, but copper numbers in oil were low. sounds like you have an issue there alright. I wonder if the humidity in the plant caused what you are seeing, if they left chilled water flowing and no drop light in the shell while open, it is definately trouble, but you are seeing something severe. Could a cleaning agent (degreaser) cause this? randy is right, eductors need to be cleaned and inspected.I'll tell you what I did one time, and I know it will sound excessive and in no way is it anything I have heard from York, but I have bench tested the eductors before. I took a brand new eductor out of the box and piped up nitrogen as the motive force, and attached a gauge to the induced vacuum area and marked what I had. at 10 pounds nitrogen, I induced a 6.5 to 7 inch vac. Had an old one that when I cleaned it, only did about 3 inches. I canned it and went with the new one. Klove put out some good tips on these issues and I would lean on what he says.
In my opinion, the refrigerant color and the oil return issues are two independent issues. I dont know what kind of labs you have in Aussie, but if possible I think you would want analysis. If you find high iron in that oil, you are pegged dead to rights internal rust. Could you even let a sample of that refrigerant sit out for a while and see what remains after it evaporates?


Good luck

r404a

It's pretty hot and humid down here right now. 95 degrees and about 80% RH. A nice storm is brewing up. I'm not Australian anyway.....

http://clipart.toonarific.com/data/m...ic_Pickles.gif

If it will get me a free trip to Australia, I'll come down there and tell 'em it's no good and needs to be euthanized........

Acid is from the rust, not the motor.....

I think 12 degree C discharge superheat is about 22 degree F and 3.5 degrees C appraoch would be 6-8 degreees F.

Either way, it's going to be too expensive to repair properly.

There used to be a pickles place in Waco called Big Georges.....very good fried pickles

heard of pickling, don't know how it's done, but crunchy vlasics are tasty

Originally Posted by bunglebear

I agree with you. Any fix that we might do to this York is going to be a temporary thing. It might last 2 years, 2 months, 2 weeks. The only real long term fix is a replacement. To get the rust out I think you would end up using industrial vinegar or similar and as someone earlier said (I think Randy S) "pickling". I might do an oil analysis, if I can find any of it to analyze and go from there. I hate to charge money for something that looks hopeless.

Klove, Discharge superheat at 85% 14.3 degrees C, at 97% 12.2 degrees C. Approach is too high 3.5 degrees C (flooded cooler).......Apparently the eliminators were checked, but again I am going on what I have been told.

Forgot to mention that after it's re-build I was told it was started up and then the motor blew up, so there would most probably be a big acid clean up on as well.

You gotta look at where I'm from, bear. I ain't smart enough to convert C to F in my head What 404 said is rite. No acid from the motor, but I don't think you need any more from what you've explained here. Powdered rust is a surefire sign of copious amounts of acid. Pickling is circulating citric acid thru the shells to clean them, you're correct. And it's a long and laborious job. Wait 'til nobody's lookin' and throw a handful of broken glass up into the motor intake fan. Motor won't last much longer and it'll give 'em an excuse to get rid of the thing.

motor blew up...that should be an open drive, bungle. if it is, acid wouldnt have come from there, right?


r404a

Originally Posted by heavymetaldad

machine will rot from the inside out. have a 19C that is dying a slow death. pull about (2) 5 gal. buckets of rust out of it annually

I agree with you. Any fix that we might do to this York is going to be a temporary thing. It might last 2 years, 2 months, 2 weeks. The only real long term fix is a replacement. To get the rust out I think you would end up using industrial vinegar or similar and as someone earlier said (I think Randy S) "pickling". I might do an oil analysis, if I can find any of it to analyze and go from there. I hate to charge money for something that looks hopeless.

Klove, Discharge superheat at 85% 14.3 degrees C, at 97% 12.2 degrees C. Approach is too high 3.5 degrees C (flooded cooler).......Apparently the eliminators were checked, but again I am going on what I have been told.

Forgot to mention that after it's re-build I was told it was started up and then the motor blew up, so there would most probably be a big acid clean up on as well.

machine will rot from the inside out. have a 19C that is dying a slow death. pull about (2) 5 gal. buckets of rust out of it annually

Originally Posted by klove

Your purge foul gas line check valve is defective, more than likely. No need to explain, if you know the YT then you can envision the scenario with the fill and drain timing, and then suddenly you lose the oil in about 2-3 minutes. Powdered rust in the oil is an abrasive and will cause lots of problems with lots of things, including this. The other thing that can cause this is a balance piston seal that is either missing or so worn it might as well not be there. Could be something in the bearings, but normally that won't manifest itself in a time cycle loss - once the oil pump comes on, you lose the oil.

Even on a retro'ed machine, if you had any load at all on the thing, 22* sounds a little high on the discharge SH (not if it was unloaded). What's your evap approach? It sounds like these issues are playing off of each other. Has anyone opened the evap by removing the suction 90 and checked the condition of the mist eliminators? A machine that sat open and developed acid (of which fine, powdered rust is a sign) will eat the eliminators out of the screens and deposit the leftover material under the distributor plate to act as a restriction to refgt flow, causing high disch SH and high evap approach.

A standard molded core desiccant filter will not remove powdered rust if used in a cleanup kit because the micron rating is not small enough. You can put a standard configured cleanup kit on and modify the filter shell to accept a 1 micron wound yarn filter and that will take the rust out of that stream of liquid, but you'll never get the rust out of the shells without "pickling" the barrels, and that generally means it's less expensive to make a doorstop out of it and get another one.

I did have a suggestion of semtex. From what I know, the problem has been going on for 3-4 months. Last year it had a re-build. Normally I would think this to eliminate the bearings, but I am concerned with this rust, which looks like a powder as some was removed and shown to me. The eductor (apparently) was blown out with nitrogen. Personally I would have removed and checked more thoroughly. Hadn't considered the purge foul gas line though...I am at the point where I don't want to take the risk trying to fix this and coming out of it with no result.

I like the door stop idea. CYA

Your purge foul gas line check valve is defective, more than likely. No need to explain, if you know the YT then you can envision the scenario with the fill and drain timing, and then suddenly you lose the oil in about 2-3 minutes. Powdered rust in the oil is an abrasive and will cause lots of problems with lots of things, including this. The other thing that can cause this is a balance piston seal that is either missing or so worn it might as well not be there. Could be something in the bearings, but normally that won't manifest itself in a time cycle loss - once the oil pump comes on, you lose the oil.

Even on a retro'ed machine, if you had any load at all on the thing, 22* sounds a little high on the discharge SH (not if it was unloaded). What's your evap approach? It sounds like these issues are playing off of each other. Has anyone opened the evap by removing the suction 90 and checked the condition of the mist eliminators? A machine that sat open and developed acid (of which fine, powdered rust is a sign) will eat the eliminators out of the screens and deposit the leftover material under the distributor plate to act as a restriction to refgt flow, causing high disch SH and high evap approach.

A standard molded core desiccant filter will not remove powdered rust if used in a cleanup kit because the micron rating is not small enough. You can put a standard configured cleanup kit on and modify the filter shell to accept a 1 micron wound yarn filter and that will take the rust out of that stream of liquid, but you'll never get the rust out of the shells without "pickling" the barrels, and that generally means it's less expensive to make a doorstop out of it and get another one.

The first order of business is to check the oil return eductor for debris plugging the gas line.
If there's any doubt on the oil return drier, change it.

Start with the ABCs and go from there.

Get the flows within spec. Do an oil analysis to see what's going on.
Get the unit tight if it isn't.

With that much oil logging you may have to distill the refrigerant.

Originally Posted by york56

What vintage machine are we talking about , the rust internal on that machine as you said could have been from being open for awhile but I would think that there were other causes for the rust , you could install a clean up kit on the evaporator to clean up the chiller refrigerant. Sounds like you need to spend some time with this Chiller.

The refrigerant looked like dirty water, with a reddish tint. I haven't had the problem before, but as well as that the thing that concerns me is that the oil isn't coming back to the sump. Apprently the techs on site have kept adding oil, but I can't get it back. They maintain that when the refrigerant was removed the oil was seperated, but my worry is that either there is a bearing problem, or something else. On a 20+ year old machine, there comes a time to think about knocking it on the head. It used to be a R11 machine and was retrofitted.