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PHM- what was the end result? I've been waiting for over a year to find out.

But they are cheap. If I remember the coolers used to be ok in the 70's. But that was then and this is now.

Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey

Well; after my first glance I started off with the late night hip-shoot "diagnosis" that the TXV was defective / not feeding. So I checked the compressor HP (1/2 HP) and then chose a 1/4 ton valve because that is about what flows enough BTU's at a -10º F. suction. When replacing it I found that the "bad" TXV was both the exact same valve AND was clearly very new. <g>

I called the box maker; Norlake and got the original specs: 1/2 HP K body Copeland compressor - they did not know which one they had used.

The almost-new compressor was then found to be rated from -40º to 0º F. That was the second WTF moment.

The ZP valve would only feed to a 50 lb. suction. This took very little refrigerant in the warm evaporator coil. The resulting refrigeration effect was very small. So the box stayed too warm to ever let the suction pressure reduce enough to allow the TXV to feed more refrigerant. A catch-22 loop.

1. I have never in my life seen a Norlake box which would do what it was rated to do.
2. A half horse compressor is what should be on a single door reach-in freezer - not on a six by six walk-in.
3. A 3/4 HP -10º condensing unit was less expensive than the correct 1/2 HP K body - and plus; the old condenser was filthy with gummed on fryer grease that I had no interest in touching.

So I installed the 3/4 HP Copeland tin can condensing unit the customer needed.

This worked better but subsequently it was discovered that on an earlier visit by one of the others in my peer group the system had been improved by eliminating the fan delay, the defrost termination, and all the wiring associated with them. And they also set up the box for four 45 minute, time-terminated defrosts per day. I found to my painful surprise that this both increases the evaporator to a skin-blistering heat level And also serves to heat the box substantially when the fans come on as soon as the defrost times out.

I don't have a whole life to continually devote to this project so at this point I have the larger condensing unit holding the box temperature at about 9º F. using four 15 minute minute time-only defrosts per day.

As soon as I get some free early morning time I am going to rewire the system to re-include fan delay and evap coil temperature termination of defrost.

That will not be today however. <g>

BTW: This is a Norlake box. Norlake is a company which apparently dismisses such frivolities as sufficient wall thickness, solenoid valves, a door switch, and a suction line heat exchanger.

PHM
------

Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey

"What's...mean?--

Is it possible to improve with a simple TimeDELAY on the defrost start timer/ set-up, and adjust so that for another 3 or 4 minutes, the defroster does not kick in (D on mk); and if not yet installing last posted changes to do....? (you know, if still getting defrosted-enough to drop more temp)
-
M: ya Probably have seen the gas-mask required -- or hold breath and run-from vapor:
Blaster
of solvent that really works nicely on old gummy-bear cdsr fin clogged w/ kitchen greazzzzz (!)
(I saw you did not wanna...)

the What's above:
Were are the temps at 5 am? before the door opens? Just 9 ?

-OF 9 subways - just have not any Norlake control issues yet nor problematics...
but they run cheaper on getting them to switch their uty electrics and gas billings at CCM's options energy team choice improvements...(!) and I get the portion as an adv fee as a commission every time they turn on the power/heat! (enrolled 87 / 18 commercially !

Did find fitting on the compressor needed tightening, and recharged new rfg.

Pan under evap that was not draining was just tapped-bent differently than OEM to then drain...

Still curious as to what your end is, let us know, pls.

I'll use less abrv-French next time.

Well; after my first glance I started off with the late night hip-shoot "diagnosis" that the TXV was defective / not feeding. So I checked the compressor HP (1/2 HP) and then chose a 1/4 ton valve because that is about what flows enough BTU's at a -10º F. suction. When replacing it I found that the "bad" TXV was both the exact same valve AND was clearly very new. <g>

I called the box maker; Norlake and got the original specs: 1/2 HP K body Copeland compressor - they did not know which one they had used.

The almost-new compressor was then found to be rated from -40º to 0º F. That was the second WTF moment.

The ZP valve would only feed to a 50 lb. suction. This took very little refrigerant in the warm evaporator coil. The resulting refrigeration effect was very small. So the box stayed too warm to ever let the suction pressure reduce enough to allow the TXV to feed more refrigerant. A catch-22 loop.

1. I have never in my life seen a Norlake box which would do what it was rated to do.
2. A half horse compressor is what should be on a single door reach-in freezer - not on a six by six walk-in.
3. A 3/4 HP -10º condensing unit was less expensive than the correct 1/2 HP K body - and plus; the old condenser was filthy with gummed on fryer grease that I had no interest in touching.

So I installed the 3/4 HP Copeland tin can condensing unit the customer needed.

This worked better but subsequently it was discovered that on an earlier visit by one of the others in my peer group the system had been improved by eliminating the fan delay, the defrost termination, and all the wiring associated with them. And they also set up the box for four 45 minute, time-terminated defrosts per day. I found to my painful surprise that this both increases the evaporator to a skin-blistering heat level And also serves to heat the box substantially when the fans come on as soon as the defrost times out.

I don't have a whole life to continually devote to this project so at this point I have the larger condensing unit holding the box temperature at about 9º F. using four 15 minute minute time-only defrosts per day.

As soon as I get some free early morning time I am going to rewire the system to re-include fan delay and evap coil temperature termination of defrost.

That will not be today however. <g>

BTW: This is a Norlake box. Norlake is a company which apparently dismisses such frivolities as sufficient wall thickness, solenoid valves, a door switch, and a suction line heat exchanger.

PHM
------

Originally Posted by Rwilson404

I apologize, haven't read full thread. Sorry if these are old ideas. Have you made sure everything is sized correctly for the box/ wall thickness? Is there a stat/ solenoid? What about a door switch? Suction line heat exchanger? Power head an SZ? As long as you have superheat, the comp should be ok

I apologize, haven't read full thread. Sorry if these are old ideas. Have you made sure everything is sized correctly for the box/ wall thickness? Is there a stat/ solenoid? What about a door switch? Suction line heat exchanger? Power head an SZ? As long as you have superheat, the comp should be ok

Originally Posted by GT1980

What's id do in just first employee walking in at 5:30 am or whatever I wake up at if I got back to sleep...?

not a lot of walkins in 9 Subways my co maint.
that is as problems...

more simple like tilts of OEM conds pan to get it to drain an other 30% sitting in pan tha dripped elsewhere

or (I see ya put in clean and new as recounted above)

But similarly to "not ...down" a 404 lost best rfg with a tiniest-slightest-minutia-ist crack of the compressor rfg line (repaired before I took over maint) , and I supposed , with Norlake Egr, we would be best to start fresh and recharge.

As late 6-defrost implied, it works...(however- @ only 4 defrosts)

but that word "should" to me means -"should" only if everything is in place to be happening...(everything-- "should"-- happen)...
so I never try to intentionally mean "should" unless I mean what your seeing IS what it it simply has of what is all in place to do.

Curious until you identify why it SHOULD continue to be the way it is,- all, what you have told us.
of course
I'll read for your solution.

Another Q) (pls, ignore if irrelevant)
What if the evap has an OEM rfg-flow-restrictive defect? Is there some OEM temp diff in the actual reading of the in/out point at say a lab-rat operating condition?
That was on a Trane 14 SEER A/C coil once, and they sent another coil out to a good end.

GT1980, run this thru the inter-galactic translator (like you did for me).

I find that GT1980, when firing on all cylinders, warrents listening.

He's a Canadian boy from Quebec trying to speak English.

Well; I do think a fair amount about the next guy. I assemble things with never-seize, I make a note of any changes made on the wiring diagram, and I leave magic marker notes in general: what I've done, etc.

In this case I waited until I got the factory wiring diagram (just came today) so that the unit would be as-original and the original diagram will be there on site - for both me next time And for 'the next guy.

The pressure limiting TXV is there to protect the compressor during warm pull-down. It's either leave it there or install a CPR valve.

PHM
-------

Originally Posted by Rheeman

If the pressure limiting valve is giving you heartache, do away with it. ? You understand what the problem is but there next guy may not? Is that your big concern?

If the pressure limiting valve is giving you heartache, do away with it. ? You understand what the problem is but there next guy may not? Is that your big concern?

Yes; I could change the TXV -

Yes; I could just change the TXV.

What do you suggest?

And why do you suggest it?

PHM
------

Originally Posted by Rheeman

Could you not just change the TXV?

Could you not just change the TXV?

Pony ..... is that you ?

Originally Posted by GT1980

What's id do in just first employee walking in at 5:30 am or whatever I wake up at if I got back to sleep...?

not a lot of walkins in 9 Subways my co maint.
that is as problems...

more simple like tilts of OEM conds pan to get it to drain an other 30% sitting in pan tha dripped elsewhere

or (I see ya put in clean and new as recounted above)

But similarly to "not ...down" a 404 lost best rfg with a tiniest-slightest-minutia-ist crack of the compressor rfg line (repaired before I took over maint) , and I supposed , with Norlake Egr, we would be best to start fresh and recharge.

As late 6-defrost implied, it works...(however- @ only 4 defrosts)

but that word "should" to me means -"should" only if everything is in place to be happening...(everything-- "should"-- happen)...
so I never try to intentionally mean "should" unless I mean what your seeing IS what it it simply has of what is all in place to do.

Curious until you identify why it SHOULD continue to be the way it is,- all, what you have told us.
of course
I'll read for your solution.

Another Q) (pls, ignore if irrelevant)
What if the evap has an OEM rfg-flow-restrictive defect? Is there some OEM temp diff in the actual reading of the in/out point at say a lab-rat operating condition?
That was on a Trane 14 SEER A/C coil once, and they sent another coil out to a good end.

I got to get this guy to write some of my invoices!

Pulled from Wikipedia ......

Gibberish is a generic term in English for talking that sounds like speech, but carries no actual meaning. This meaning has also been extended to meaningless text or gobbledygook. The common theme in gibberish statements is a lack of literal sense, which can be described as a presence of nonsense. Gibberish should not be confused with literary nonsense such as that used in the poem "Jabberwocky" by Lewis Carroll.

Originally Posted by GT1980

What's id do in just first employee walking in at 5:30 am or whatever I wake up at if I got back to sleep...?

not a lot of walkins in 9 Subways my co maint.
that is as problems...

more simple like tilts of OEM conds pan to get it to drain an other 30% sitting in pan tha dripped elsewhere

or (I see ya put in clean and new as recounted above)

But similarly to "not ...down" a 404 lost best rfg with a tiniest-slightest-minutia-ist crack of the compressor rfg line (repaired before I took over maint) , and I supposed , with Norlake Egr, we would be best to start fresh and recharge.

As late 6-defrost implied, it works...(however- @ only 4 defrosts)

but that word "should" to me means -"should" only if everything is in place to be happening...(everything-- "should"-- happen)...
so I never try to intentionally mean "should" unless I mean what your seeing IS what it it simply has of what is all in place to do.

Curious until you identify why it SHOULD continue to be the way it is,- all, what you have told us.
of course
I'll read for your solution.

Another Q) (pls, ignore if irrelevant)
What if the evap has an OEM rfg-flow-restrictive defect? Is there some OEM temp diff in the actual reading of the in/out point at say a lab-rat operating condition?
That was on a Trane 14 SEER A/C coil once, and they sent another coil out to a good end.

What??!!?

Can you tell me what these sentences mean on standard non-frenetic English ?

"What's id do in just first employee walking in at 5:30 am or whatever I wake up at if I got back to sleep...?"

WTH does That mean?

"not a lot of walkins in 9 Subways my co maint. that is as problems... "

Say what?

"more simple like tilts of OEM conds pan to get it to drain an other 30% sitting in pan tha dripped elsewhere"

So you have to level drain pans in order to get them to drain properly?

"But similarly to "not ...down" a 404 lost best rfg with a tiniest-slightest-minutia-ist crack of the compressor rfg line (repaired before I took over maint) , and I supposed , with Norlake Egr, we would be best to start fresh and recharge."

Huh?

"Curious until you identify why it SHOULD continue to be the way it is,- all, what you have told us."

What? <g>

PHM
------

Mornin' pull down temp!

Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey

There is no fan delay.
I added 50% to the original horse...
PHM
--------

What's id do in just first employee walking in at 5:30 am or whatever I wake up at if I got back to sleep...?

not a lot of walkins in 9 Subways my co maint.
that is as problems...

more simple like tilts of OEM conds pan to get it to drain an other 30% sitting in pan tha dripped elsewhere

or (I see ya put in clean and new as recounted above)

But similarly to "not ...down" a 404 lost best rfg with a tiniest-slightest-minutia-ist crack of the compressor rfg line (repaired before I took over maint) , and I supposed , with Norlake Egr, we would be best to start fresh and recharge.

As late 6-defrost implied, it works...(however- @ only 4 defrosts)

but that word "should" to me means -"should" only if everything is in place to be happening...(everything-- "should"-- happen)...
so I never try to intentionally mean "should" unless I mean what your seeing IS what it it simply has of what is all in place to do.

Curious until you identify why it SHOULD continue to be the way it is,- all, what you have told us.
of course
I'll read for your solution.

Another Q) (pls, ignore if irrelevant)
What if the evap has an OEM rfg-flow-restrictive defect? Is there some OEM temp diff in the actual reading of the in/out point at say a lab-rat operating condition?
That was on a Trane 14 SEER A/C coil once, and they sent another coil out to a good end.

Let me catch you up Late-Man

There is no fan delay.
I added 50% to the original horsepower.
The minimum defrost time possible is 15 minutes.
I have it set for 15 minutes now - three defrosts per day.
There is no defrost termination either.
There are no pressure controls, solenoid valves, or pumpdown.
The TXV limits the compressor loading as it is a ZP
The condenser was clean when I got it out of the box it came in.

PHM
--------

Originally Posted by derekkite

I got here late, but I'd check the fan delay. It should freeze the coil real cold before bringing the fan on. It will cycle a number of times before the box pulls down.

There isn't enough hp to pull a warm box with product. It can only start cold and empty, then frozen product introduced.

It will ice up in the warm box quickly. Time how long the defrost needs to be, no longer, set it and defrost 6 times a day. Check pumpdown operation to make sure that it doesn't take too much time out of the defrost cycle.

Everything has to be perfect. Clean condenser, put a fan up there to circulate air if necessary. No blockage of air flow around the coil by boxed product. You might need to fiddle with the tx valve to not overload the compressor. There will be a setting where it will work, and if it isn't there it won't. Probably not anywhere near what usually works.

Underpowered freezers are fun. As I said, everything needs to be perfect for them to get even close to working.

defrost 6 times a day ?

I thought the only thing that did that was a residential refrigerator .....

I got here late, but I'd check the fan delay. It should freeze the coil real cold before bringing the fan on. It will cycle a number of times before the box pulls down.

There isn't enough hp to pull a warm box with product. It can only start cold and empty, then frozen product introduced.

It will ice up in the warm box quickly. Time how long the defrost needs to be, no longer, set it and defrost 6 times a day. Check pumpdown operation to make sure that it doesn't take too much time out of the defrost cycle.

Everything has to be perfect. Clean condenser, put a fan up there to circulate air if necessary. No blockage of air flow around the coil by boxed product. You might need to fiddle with the tx valve to not overload the compressor. There will be a setting where it will work, and if it isn't there it won't. Probably not anywhere near what usually works.

Underpowered freezers are fun. As I said, everything needs to be perfect for them to get even close to working.