Reply to Thread

Got another X13, been changing alot of them lately. my company A doesn't replace modules, replace the whole thing. I get tired of explaining to customers about them damn x13's i just printed off some flyers and let them read while i do my thing. most just shake their heads and mumble.

my all time favorite x13 motor question im asked:

cust: so im going to have to replace this thing every few years?

me: holding back laughs and grins::thinking, damn right, you will: reply, no ma'am/sir improvements have been made to the motor/module design/layout blah blah blah.. while simultaneously processing the payment. labor warranty are lost of folks around here.

Originally Posted by SBKold

I went to a house yesterday that had lightning strike yhe ground close to home.

2 units both have 2.3 ecms and both had bad modules.

Pulled housings out of units to inspect and both felt like electric brakes when spun manually.

Unplug modules and shaft is free. Plug module back in and brakes come back.

Sounds like output MOSFETs shorted. A common failure mode.

Originally Posted by mason

I'm not sure but some of the failures that are being called bearings could be magnets coming lose and making the grinding noise.

Got one that did that awhile back.

Originally Posted by hurtinhvac

Interesting. Along the lines of experimenting: How can I fire one of these puppies on the bench without it bolting away and taking out my drill press? Need some sort of load attached to it - only long enough to see it spin.

Yeah, with no load they act goofy.

Interesting. Along the lines of experimenting: How can I fire one of these puppies on the bench without it bolting away and taking out my drill press? Need some sort of load attached to it - only long enough to see it spin.

I went to a house yesterday that had lightning strike yhe ground close to home.

2 units both have 2.3 ecms and both had bad modules.

Pulled housings out of units to inspect and both felt like electric brakes when spun manually.

Unplug modules and shaft is free. Plug module back in and brakes come back.

Originally Posted by mason

I'm not sure but some of the failures that are being called bearings could be magnets coming lose and making the grinding noise.

I haven't seen that one yet, but I've talked to several people who have, and seen it mentioned in a couple of posts here.

I'm not sure but some of the failures that are being called bearings could be magnets coming lose and making the grinding noise.

Originally Posted by mark beiser

If you have one that spins freely, play around with jumpering the wires together, it gets surprisingly hard to turn when all 3 are jumpered together.

For fun, we take the modules off at the shop, chuck the shaft in a 1/2 drill, and make them generate power. Any two of the wires will light up a 6 light vanity fixture. It does make it hard to turn though!

Wind generators operate similar. Shorting the output puts the brakes on.

So put new bearings in it, you can get them from most any bearing supply.

If you have one that spins freely, play around with jumpering the wires together, it gets surprisingly hard to turn when all 3 are jumpered together.

Originally Posted by mark beiser

We've never really had a problem with ECM2.3 motors in either configuration, other than the occasional burned out thermistor in the module.
I haven't noticed that particular failure as being more common in one than the other.

According to the service bulletins out from a couple of different manufacturers, the X13 motors are having issues due to moisture. Moisture issues would be more common with the blower after the coil, due to the potential for either water blowing off the coil, or condensation in the motor.
We've only installed one air handler that has an X13 motor after the coil, it was several years back, when the X13 first came out. No issues from it yet.
The rest have been in gas furnaces, or American Standard ForeFront air handlers, so all have the motor before the coil.



Are you checking wire to wire, or just to ground on each one?

I'm not saying the bearings don't fail too, but 100% of the motors I've found with the "grinding, stuttering shaft" had a phase to phase short, and the bearings spun nice and smooth when I disassembled the motor, so I'm thinking most of the "bearing failures" people have had with them were really phase to phase shorts. My sample size of that type of failure in ECM motors is really low though, maybe 4 or 5, despite >10 years of almost every system we install having an ECM motor.

It isn't terribly important, as the motor gets replaced either way, I just like to know exactly what happened.
If I find an actual bearing failure on an out of warranty motor, I'd very seriously consider replacing the bearings instead of the whole motor. The bearings are easy to acquire, inexpensive, and easy to change.

The X13 motor I retrofitted into the system in my home is a warranty motor that had a noisy bearing. The manufacturer didn't want it back, so I put new bearings in it and installed it in my system in place of the failing PSC motor.
It took some wiring trickery, but it works very well. Since the speed taps use 24v input, and I have an Ecobee thermostat, I set the system up so it increases the airflow if the thermostat calls for 2nd stage cooling, and so it reduces the airflow if dehumidification is needed.
My system is slightly more complicated than your typical Ruud 1997 vintage single stage 10 SEER AC and single stage 80% furnace.

Wire to wire, 10.8 all around.

Funny, before it was just a little hard to turn...still definately bad. After being on my bench for a couple weeks it's locked up tight.

3.0 by the way.

Originally Posted by ICanHas

So, basically modules are now available for basic X13s eliminating the need to transfer blower wheel, right?

Yes, Rheem does have the modules, but it is a question of whether they are in stock. I just went 2 days ago and they had some modules come in but they were not 1/2 hp I needed, so they gave me the whole motor/module. I checked the box and it did have the pink dot on it, just like the service bulletin said from mason.

So, basically modules are now available for basic X13s eliminating the need to transfer blower wheel, right?

carrier dealer here is letting us replace just the module on the x13's

Originally Posted by demorrison

Do you have less problems with the blower located before the indoor coil because of moisture?

We've never really had a problem with ECM2.3 motors in either configuration, other than the occasional burned out thermistor in the module.
I haven't noticed that particular failure as being more common in one than the other.

According to the service bulletins out from a couple of different manufacturers, the X13 motors are having issues due to moisture. Moisture issues would be more common with the blower after the coil, due to the potential for either water blowing off the coil, or condensation in the motor.
We've only installed one air handler that has an X13 motor after the coil, it was several years back, when the X13 first came out. No issues from it yet.
The rest have been in gas furnaces, or American Standard ForeFront air handlers, so all have the motor before the coil.

Originally Posted by hurtinhvac

I have an ECM on my bench with a grinding, stuttering shaft. Motor ohms out fine, all equal.

Are you checking wire to wire, or just to ground on each one?

I'm not saying the bearings don't fail too, but 100% of the motors I've found with the "grinding, stuttering shaft" had a phase to phase short, and the bearings spun nice and smooth when I disassembled the motor, so I'm thinking most of the "bearing failures" people have had with them were really phase to phase shorts. My sample size of that type of failure in ECM motors is really low though, maybe 4 or 5, despite >10 years of almost every system we install having an ECM motor.

It isn't terribly important, as the motor gets replaced either way, I just like to know exactly what happened.
If I find an actual bearing failure on an out of warranty motor, I'd very seriously consider replacing the bearings instead of the whole motor. The bearings are easy to acquire, inexpensive, and easy to change.

The X13 motor I retrofitted into the system in my home is a warranty motor that had a noisy bearing. The manufacturer didn't want it back, so I put new bearings in it and installed it in my system in place of the failing PSC motor.
It took some wiring trickery, but it works very well. Since the speed taps use 24v input, and I have an Ecobee thermostat, I set the system up so it increases the airflow if the thermostat calls for 2nd stage cooling, and so it reduces the airflow if dehumidification is needed.
My system is slightly more complicated than your typical Ruud 1997 vintage single stage 10 SEER AC and single stage 80% furnace.

Originally Posted by thermojohn

All our x-13 failures have been in air handlers operating in cool mode. Cannot recall any x-13 failures in gas furnaces at all... Interesting.

Are you saying in cool only setup or just when used in cool mode? The blower don't run at same speeds, so the stress placed on module depends on the power the motor is driven at. Also, condensation issue is more likely in cool operation

Originally Posted by mark beiser

Are you positive that it is a bearing failure?
They use some rather good bearings in them.

A phase to phase short in the motor windings will magnetically lock the motor up, makes it much harder to turn the shaft, and almost has a grinding feel to turning it, kind of like a failed ball bearing.
Sometimes the motor will still run with a phase to phase short, just not at full speed, and will make a terrible noise that actually sounds somewhat like a bad bearing.
Pop the module off and check the resistance between each motor lead, and each other lead, if all 3 resistance readings are not the same, there is a phase to phase short in the motor.

If all 3 phases are shorted together, it is even harder to turn the shaft.

I have an ECM on my bench with a grinding, stuttering shaft. Motor ohms out fine, all equal.

Originally Posted by mason

Attachment 309901

Thanks mason, that explains why the surge protector did not burn out. It was not a surge that caused the failure. I wonder if they are reworking the modules that we send in and sending them back to us. The bad module that I took off had a 7/7/2010 date but it had two red/pink dots on it that were made with a magic marker.

Thanks for that, Mason.

Attachment 309901