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GeoThermal Cooling Dual full-Priority Hydro-Temp

howdy Chris:
I am heading to NY for an install/design-build and back there later this summer and even Fredr.MD

Originally Posted by ChrisJ RI

"IF...~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, the tech pulled out the refrigerant, 6+ lbs. Then after the repair he weighted
(a) back in that same refrigerant~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(b)
Now that we are using cooling, I don't think it is performing that good. During cooling while in desuperheating mode the LAT is in the low 60'sF. Once the DHW is satisfied the ground loop takes over, LAT goes down to low to mid 50's.

(c) Which is around the EWT.

Chris

a) YIKES ! if the blend is not working as OEM refg't... then to really KNOW: only new goes back in, ever... from me. (410)

b) A bit less efficient but FREE COOLING occurs for the 15 to 25 minutes PRIORITY DeSuperheating- is FUll condensing if you have the Dual Priority/ instant Domestic Hot Water heating Priority and Radiant Priority ( make sure head pressures for the end of that heating cycle are under 410 for 410refrigerant, even though it can go higher, make sure! to have some 20 year compressor longevity )
b2) Is it taking over 25 minutes to recover hot water: 60,000-64,000 btuh Hydro-Temp older called 5-ton because they did not name by output as any variable "6-ton" sized'-er is named to date...
Your Hydro-Temp usually should heat the HW at just like two gas 35kbh HW heaters, or a 1/2 gal per hour oil HW heater - in recovery for about 15-25 minutes, only... (3 to 4 electric 4500w HW heaters...)
then full cooling capacity of that say 60k compressors is usually near 67,000 total cooling with ground loops under 90f entering/ 3 gpm per compressor ton (15-16 gpm there for that "size 6" other comparing is about )

in other words a) done new; and
b) should freeze well insulated with even walk out basements typically (guess) a 5000 sq ft home on a 90 degree day,

~decently having / some higher return air ducting in Northern Homes (( for heating efficiency as well as dryness in such short cooling seasons...proves doing better, to me... -- Southern opinions of "no"-high- return-air's are to be cautiously reviewed in duct designs for 3 to 5 weeks of cooling in the North~ a bit more run time means dryness, generally, per se ))
Simply put: Low returns are a mess in heat pump northern north of zone 4 , I have reason to believe, since we also hear and see relative 5f and above successes of all the mini-split 'stories'. [horizontal air handler- gt splits mounted in conditioned areas, like large mini-splits would be, - as higher, are not-incredibly, just as inexpensive in large northern offices to home rec-areas as desired... and do more efficient cooling and heating (on better loop designs) than standing low return Air-HT-P-systems that I have try to be considerate about.]

c) If your EW is around the 50's and the pumps are not split to run one in cooling 'til the loop is at say 60f entering (15 to 16 gpm on 5 tons of compressors (size 6) and the fan is maxed at 2350 cfm setting: 5000 sqft cooling conditioned space in humid 90f ambient is easy FROZEN, unless there is some unusual 300 sq ft of glass in direct sun- lighting the home flooring, which like some offices I have seen can mean 1 ton of compressor for every 200 sq ft of flooring in that sunlight, then, if nothing is improved.
(Understood: all is relative to the local tech you can see 'performing" at other homes getting certain results compared to what I am thinking of/ presuming here, in this science and practice of doctoring HVAC distribution and systems.)

ie) 95 days , average glass to insulated old 1980's homes retrofitted that are heating at about 12 to 13 btuh per living sqft at -10f to -15f winters, not using any supplemental/back-up KW Strip or wood or other fuels... are cooling well at over 800 sq ft to even 1100 sqft per compressor (label in box) ton.

Are the return ducts and most supplies well-sealed,too?
I have even placed tape on cabinet seems and plugged the 4 corners in units under inside the blower deck, preventing excess leakage for some analysis and found it was over 5% helpful...

in a dry home, what's the temp drop (a $11 kichen store thermometer) just from the supply to the higher temp return air? if in the 50's; the drop is more understandable to comment -
What does the IRD read out say the CFM is running at in the toolbox, system data, etc
Did you get a Palm zire 31- or m515 or tungsten loaded with the Hydro-Temp software for reading out... ? Even the 2007 version works for the toolbox just fine and set-up changes at the touch of the screen and can be photo'd and posted for the 7 to 9 sensors diagnostics... comparing the sensors to a real thermometer is a good benchmarking.

"IF
it appears any performance requires more than a ~ 3 to 4oz "top off to good refrigeration" in a tech's mind (qualified...) for the Hydro-Temp with Priority instant HW and or radiant inclusive,
then
some may recommend dump the charge and fill with all new 410a... because of it being a blended refrigerant from a clean start, we are told."

Yes, the tech pulled out the refrigerant, 6+ lbs. Then after the repair he weighted back in that same refrigerant. Was a bit shy of the 6.11 stamped on the unit so he added some from a new container.

Now that we are using cooling, I don't think it is performing that good. During cooling while in desuperheating mode the LAT is in the low 60'sF. Once the DHW is satisfied the ground loop takes over, LAT goes down to low to mid 50's. Which is around the EWT.

Chris

too:
If any other limit switch has a small drip of oil continuing... may have lost the best gas already:

r410a as you may know , loses its best refrigerant of the blend that it is, first, - the highest pressure gas...
but rather than replacing parts, just have a tech loosen the threaded limit- at the bras - nut, hub, and re-tighten per experience with hydraulics/ fittings.
After shipping,
ANY GTHP or AIRHP
gets a "check all" from many companies from little electrical slip-connectors to threaded fittings, etc.

IF
it appears any performance requires more than a ~ 3 to 4oz "top off to good refrigeration" in a tech's mind (qualified...) for the Hydro-Temp with Priority instant HW and or radiant inclusive,
then
some may recommend dump the charge and fill with all new 410a... because of it being a blended refrigerant from a clean start, we are told.

Originally Posted by ChrisJ RI

.... Unit is working...

I just don't think the charge is correct, .....
HT says that's a starting point and should be fine tuned with superheat.

I'm no tech but if the manufacturer says to adjust it from the stamped weight I wish the tech had done so!

Chris

As with any brand going through things like "new upgrade boards" every 2 years to simple cu pipe elbows leaking refrigerant at an inside bend or a critical start relay or cap or miss-wired even or
mus-labeled- misprinted motor tag
ANY brand name which all have suffered from the above in a/c or AirHP or Mini's or Geo-T HP's... all inclusive :::

Some of us feel a good start up in COOLING first, knowing the btuh specs from website (BristolCompressors) characteristics, for the NOW NEEDED (as for a while) another 20 minutes with a tech--- some feel they can KNOW the performance for you, Chris.

Water-source systems (industrial chillers to water cooled ice machines to GTHP's) have a 'neat' method of KNOWING performance by any plumber who has a temp probe and a way to determine GPM flow:

Approx : BTUH = antifreeze constant (~ check for further accuracy for your % , etc)
BTUH = 485 X GPM x Temp Diff (dT or Td) of the loop fluid flow --- easier than most air-source 'guessing' you CAN BE within 3% accuracy.

The compressor website/ clean water coils, etc correlates (calibrated) readings of the refrigerant temps in a properly charged system to estimated btuh-gross heating rejected (in Cooling mode) to the then warmed loop fluid recieving heat energy while t in -cooling the air, then, temp-diff of that warmed fluids (loop asthe heat sink) can be measured pretty well.

BTUH=constant ~ (485) x GPM x Td for KNOWING how well and efficient a start-up was compared to later repairs.
H-T accurately starts at the label, but sometimes (2x in since 1996 working H-T) a misprint lead to going beyond just reading superheat's and subcooling's and refrigerant parameters, to the "plumber's check" as above.

In heating : LOOSELY: a little less accurately, but with the air flows:
Emgy Heat Mode only the toasters (KW Strip back up "ON")
Have actual WATTS VA- noted; measure air- in at return (anywhere near a couple of feet in front of the filter rack)
... read downstream from the supply air a few feet away (mixed air)
Blower on same speed as the next comparison: GTHeat only, highest speed (test buttons all the way to including supplemental 4th staging emgy strip setting blower at highest spd) but
have the breaker to the strip heat "OFF"
let run a good 8 minutes
what TEMP leaves the system (no call for instant Hot Water Priority system) ?

Air Temp rise per KW in electric heat X 3413 (VA in "K"watts) was ___________? then X's NOTHING (just keep that number)...
in GTHP ____________? Temp rise was? COMPARE %-wise the relationship of KNOWN electrical benchmark of the BTUH
to
a relative GTHP (or any system in with strip heaters) btuh output.
IF you know 10 kw was 34,000 btuh as an electrical benchmark to heat, then Temp differentials MAY tell if the unit is performing
close to Compressor heating capacity. Chris or Scott at H-T now, can help with the correlation (or post later , for when I see it or others to comment)
Here the refrigerant GAUGED temps giving website btuh of the compressors (two inside) BTUH will be higher than what is read in
Air Temp difference but COMPARED to known electric heat @ 100% efficient, should be 'telling' (again compared then to refrig gauge temp readings of conditional output capacity. (if not the fluid method)

The radiant heat exchanger was changed 10 days ago. Unit is working...

I just don't think the charge is correct, or some refrigerant has leaked out again.

Tech put in amount stamped on unit, HT says that's a starting point and should be fine tuned with superheat.

I'm no tech but if the manufacturer says to adjust it from the stamped weight I wish the tech had done so!

Chris

Well the refrigerant has leaked out again, pretty sure it's leaking in the radiant water coil. Have had problems with "air" in the radiant every winter.

I am so frustrated, I don't have much confidence that it can be fixed to last 10-15 years. If they have to pull the unit to fix it I'm not sure I want it put back.

Chris

Hydro Temp winter news? hot water priority heat recovery

Originally Posted by ChrisJ RI

...s suppose to have.

Chris

Any news Chris?

I did get an eM from you , but it bounced in sending reply a while ago...

"Too, it is a good time to listen for air in a pressurized loop system."

Non-pressurized, has HT's auto-purge.

I doubt the installer saved readings from back when the unit was new.

The tech that came out seemed to just want to weight the refrig back in, I had printed out the papers from HT on how to charge the system. Sounds like what I got was "close enough".

The unit was still working on almost half the amount of refrigerant it's suppose to have.

Chris

A simpler check for you having instant on-demand hot water built-in : no-tech- but make notes for them..

Figure the HW tank with an even starting-point to heat - temp- of by letting the HW 1/6 hp circulator pull through tank in test mode (no compressor) in a call for HW. (15 minutes recirculating, not heating anything) and read start temp.

Calculate the btu's required to heat that tank say 10 degrees in so many minutes.
Looking at the Palm read out , now turning on in normal mode, if both compressors are programmed for HW heating, HW sensor over say 3 readings (better) reading period if longer than 10 minutes, and compare to tech notes when all was clean. Each download can be saved to memory for benchmarking "normal" and service conditions.

All will be for to compare to the heat of rejection for your compressors/ systemic performance in a test.

That is also is how I know when it is good to flush a little vinegar through the HW maker in 1- to 3 years on some... to keep them clean- Test mode and a call for HW kicks on the HW circulator and Loop Pumps too--

Too, it is a good time to listen for air in a pressurized loop system.

contact us: gtxprt@gmail.com , best

Hi CJ

If the sensors built in are not usually found tech-benchmarked against a true temperature differential reading, - so to be sure there on performance heat of absorption/rejection, then go by those - that are benchmarked for differential accuracy-..

and the sensors are to be read - particularly the leaving loop out- in even a quick read, before starting, in test mode "on" but not depressing the step button in to the compressor operation, just reading your loop (DHW switch off the Priority- not to have circulating) [ can test from the toolbox, in the palm, after downloading a reading] - [[ have you backed up the palm to palm desktop hot link?]]

if not sure:
Factory charge on plates still needs to be checked against true performance inspection.

I have watched this sensor array since 2007 and since they are mounted touching surfaces of non-conformity there should be a double check, for U.

Although the Hydro-Temp system does not need the P/T ported fittings b/c of the sensors; you still want to note the beginning sensor differentials on the palm screen.
~
IF a tech can check the subcooling and even read off the discharge probe (compressor-out) hot gas superheat,- or understand sump temps readings (compressor bottom) as there is a txv, and regular superheats can bounce a bit, and then determine the factory heat of absorption to the fluid EW and LW readings differential (a less costly but to a 1/10th deg meat thermometer reading 20F - can be used ) you may have to put something , a tie , or such to hold tight to pipe.

at conditions:
Installer/ a tech should be able to see if your in margins without a pressure-port reading. The pressure drop on your system anyway is so low it is very hard anyway to get a decent read across those system water -loop heat exchangers (3-4 ft TDH under 2psig... at full speed, is why one 1/6 hp pump works on 5-ton, 5 piped systems- but I use two on 4.1/2ton and larger, on loops above 34 entering ALWAYS helps greatly).

GPM = Factory btuh listing (or call'em) div by (Temp-Diff to a 1/10th degree reading) div by a typical 485 constant if you have ~ 18 to 22% methanol. you can then compare things if you believe it is charged 98%+ well, but not 4 or 5 oz refrigerant overcharged. That is tight enough to know performance. These GPM calcs by formula can be checked against pump curves with antifreeze by your pro.

These readings are only great in high speed with up to 20-minutes test-on "soak-time" - many multi staging systems can not be much rushed for readings. Once benchmarked, the DIFFERENCE in the sensors can be very accurate, if not out of spec placement/condition. - Some in 2007-2008 I 'coated' my self and re-installed on the EW, LW, and suction, and freeze-sensor line. On the Palm your approving that you have antifreeze in the loop sufficient for 10 or so, you may have your tech call the factory and have Chris give him the temp-code to change the freeze setting

I have on occasion wondered of the oil drip at screw-on limit switches of many brands hands on, and found a couple of good line wrenches/crescent, and 1/8th to 3/8ths of a turn tighter stops any leaks ( that didn't even show on soap-bubbles in some 10 minute watch. - have all limits (3) dried and checked in a few months for residual oil (gas) leaking. 'dusty finger check' against fitting location threads.

Sorry I was so brief.

Yes I believe he checked performance using the sensors built into the unit, EWT & LWT, EAT & LAT also has 2 refrig temps. Gets the info using a palm pilot, from georgia control board.

Chris

All SHOULD be good????? SHOULD BE??? Did the tech not verify system performance by measuring the heat of extraction/rejection? That test is a MUST do.

Bergy

Tech took out the 3.5- 4 lbs of refrigerant left (unit holds 6.1 lbs), changed switch, weighted back in 6.1 lbs. Says all should be good.

Chris

Tech found low pressure switch with oil dripping from it. They will order the part and come back.

Chris

I have an electric meter in the utility room connected to the heat pump that tracks the KWH usage.

I was going to post my excel spreadsheet where I have been tracking daily KWH usage, about 2 1/2 yrs worth. Forum doesn't allow excel files.

During shoulder months, basicly just running to heat DHW, I was seeing double the daily KWH's compared to previous years. That made me think it was a fouled heat exchanger.

A/C all summer has used almost 30% more KWH's daily. Previous 2 summers it used a max of 20 KWH's in a day only during hottest days. This summer, almost everyday over 20, saw max of 32 a few days.

Chris

Tech coming out on monday to check unit, possibly low refrigerent.

When I told him lowest LAT 55-56*F all summer and running 2nd & 3rd stage when outdoor temps low to mid 80's. Said it sounds like it could be low.

From Palm pilot when running 3rd stage heating DHW
comp: 71.3* 209.8* 138.5 dT
loop: 68.7* 66.8 1.9
loop coil 67.6*
DHW sensor 117.2*

I printed out Hydro-Temps charge procedures, installer said his "lead tech" is "up to speed" on HT units.

Chris
I am just worried...

Originally Posted by ChrisJ RI

Thanks...

...that the A/C is running, even running at the same time the ground loop pump is running. ... running.

well if you have a hp tech there, then I would also have the palm charged and reading the toolbox and setup downloaded to the palm... ready for 'action' instruction.
but also if you could double check to see if in high speed (3rd stage) there is an appropriate "superheat'" checked against Disch/hot-gas, superheat (both on the sensors at a click, you would know if it is undercharged by general temp readings and diff of the loop temp and/or water heating diff full condensing temp without gauges as much to be attached.

You may text or eMail the readings, but I will look to get a call with a tech there or call H-T as you desire.
I am missing the link from the website thought in place, and reworking that in a couple days.

Please have the tech there as one would be poking about within inches of lethal voltage (really any ac over 30 volts , well connected, can kill a human, regardless of all the electrical "hit" stories heard and seen, that our dried old dirty pinkies experienced)

Thanks Jon,

Will probably have to get HT involved.

The DHW pump is running all the time that the A/C is running, even running at the same time the ground loop pump is running. It's using over 30 KWH's a day. I don't ever see that much except for winter when Radiant is running.

Chris

Originally Posted by ChrisJ RI

...used the contact us at your site.

Chris

Chris:
At the moment I will have to fix a net issue, but you can still have your dealer there on speaker ph w/you for a review and set up.
He does not need H-T experience, just the palm ird programmer, and heat pump experience.

Ask him if he wants a free tech-tech meeting of the minds (schooling, for not charging you) or what you may choose to afford.

k
getting back to that, then