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Originally Posted by madhat

How about the Carrier WSHP, where the compressor was in the middle of the serpentine, water coil. On the plus side the the boss couldn't throw a 5 ton compressor at you and tell you to walk it up the ladder to install it above the ceiling by yourself.

Always liked when he'd say "What's your problem, 'Bill' puts in one a week that way" Bill looked like a WWF wrestler.



In his late Fifties, only thing is he was in his mid twenties

Tell Bill to do it then. Yeah, and when you hurt your back they will want to lay you off.
They threw a 10 ton compressor at me to go up two flights of stairs and lift 5' to install in unit on top of a condo. 100 percent addison package. The factory supplied compressor. Suction and discharge where not only different sizes but where in different locations. Took two men 8 hours to replace. That included two trips to supply house for copper fittings. Did I mention supply house was 25 miles one way.

Originally Posted by meoberry

Now back to the original post.

Just a couple of days ago. I was helping out a new service tech. with a newer model Trane and I said Leave it to Trane to make something simple like heating and cooling air complicated. Just like a Trane water source heat pump that you have to remove the entire control panel just to check the capacitor for the compressor. Which is always good and the compressor is shot. I would like to give the engineer that designed it a peice of my mind. And from most of the enginers I have talked to he could probably use it

How about the Carrier WSHP, where the compressor was in the middle of the serpentine, water coil. On the plus side the the boss couldn't throw a 5 ton compressor at you and tell you to walk it up the ladder to install it above the ceiling by yourself.

Always liked when he'd say "What's your problem, 'Bill' puts in one a week that way" Bill looked like a WWF wrestler.



In his late Fifties, only thing is he was in his mid twenties

Originally Posted by fv_tom

Why is it that I keep coming across rooftop units (mostly Lennox it seems) which are way over-complicated and have so many optional features which are never used?

How much more is the customer paying for a unit with the option for zoning, fire alarm integration, smoke detectors, etc. when they're not even being used? It's just a 2-stage rooftop for pete's sake!

Is it just to keep the plumbers from working on it?

those options are standard on L series systems. so the end user isn't paying extra for the options as they would other brands. i like it cause it keeps contractors from cheaping out on options that i feel as a tech needs to be in the system.

i love the L series lennox RTU's. noting easier in the world to work on IMHO

and everybody here know's that am a huge trane fan...

Originally Posted by timebuilder

Easy. There are many "older" malls. King of Prussia Plaza outside of Philadelphia has a section that dates back to 1964. I was 12.

Older malls use individual units. Some stores have RTU's, and SOME of them have economizers. Many don't. But, we are talking about air handlers here.

Other stores use split systems, and most of them were never configured with a fresh air/economizer duct system feeding the air handler.

So, when replacing an air handler in such a retail store as previously mentioned, you would...what? Get the engineering firm involved and construct a fresh air duct for that store?

See what I mean? If code requires fresh air when an air handler is replaced.....

Guess I didn't look at that way. Your exactly right.

What you have described is the natural evolution of technology. The "check engine light" of air conditioning. It's coming.

Now, a lot of people cannot afford to put the whiz-bang stuff over their little hair salon space, so our jobs are safe for the next 15 years or so. Right about the time I stop climbing ladders.

Now back to the original post.

Just a couple of days ago. I was helping out a new service tech. with a newer model Trane and I said Leave it to Trane to make something simple like heating and cooling air complicated. Just like a Trane water source heat pump that you have to remove the entire control panel just to check the capacitor for the compressor. Which is always good and the compressor is shot. I would like to give the engineer that designed it a peice of my mind. And from most of the enginers I have talked to he could probably use it.

You others might think that the neat lights to diagnose a unit is great, but remember this any half ***ed service tech can figuire out problem. Your days could be numbered.

I was told by Rheem. The reason they decided to install their neat little board with the numbered display was to make it possible for a one year service tech. to diagnose the problem. I told him then that I had sold my last Rheem.

Now it looks like the manufacturers are trying to replace experienced techs. with younger and cheaper techs. Most shops will have to have at least one experienced techs. and a bunch of parts changers. That is the reason I left the residential field and moved to a commercial/industrial company.

Originally Posted by whec720

Guess that takes the "V" out of HVAC. So now you are left with HAC!


Ironic.

How can a commercial building, such as a mall, not mix in fresh air? Unbelievable.

Easy. There are many "older" malls. King of Prussia Plaza outside of Philadelphia has a section that dates back to 1964. I was 12.

Older malls use individual units. Some stores have RTU's, and SOME of them have economizers. Many don't. But, we are talking about air handlers here.

Other stores use split systems, and most of them were never configured with a fresh air/economizer duct system feeding the air handler.

So, when replacing an air handler in such a retail store as previously mentioned, you would...what? Get the engineering firm involved and construct a fresh air duct for that store?

See what I mean? If code requires fresh air when an air handler is replaced.....

Originally Posted by timebuilder

Wow.

I can't imagine a 35 year old mall without fresh air being forced to add it. Might as well tear it down and start over.

Guess that takes the "V" out of HVAC. So now you are left with HAC!


Ironic.

How can a commercial building, such as a mall, not mix in fresh air? Unbelievable.

Originally Posted by bootlen

Here in Beaufort County, and I think statewide, if we replace the AH in a commercial site and, for instance, it does not have fresh air, we are required to bring it up to code. Same for fire dampers and any other code issue. Maybe it's the same in the OP.

Wow.

I can't imagine a 35 year old mall without fresh air being forced to add it. Might as well tear it down and start over.

Originally Posted by timebuilder

I have seen many installs using the smoke detectors, and many more without. This could depend on when the building was originally constructed, and in what municipality.

Most of the options are not of a nature that they would be required by code.

Here in Beaufort County, and I think statewide, if we replace the AH in a commercial site and, for instance, it does not have fresh air, we are required to bring it up to code. Same for fire dampers and any other code issue. Maybe it's the same in the OP.

Originally Posted by bootlen

Could it be that code calls for installation of those items but that they were never checked for proper operation by the inspectors?

I have seen many installs using the smoke detectors, and many more without. This could depend on when the building was originally constructed, and in what municipality.

Most of the options are not of a nature that they would be required by code.

Originally Posted by timebuilder

In commercial leases used in Pennsylvania, the landlord supplies operational units at the commencement of the lease, and the lessee must make certain that all systems are operating at the end of the lease. Some landlords are more savvy in this area than others. An inspection of the property by a trained inspector can result in a charge-back to the security deposit of the departing tenant.

Thats the way it should be.

Could it be that code calls for installation of those items but that they were never checked for proper operation by the inspectors?

Originally Posted by zachhvac

True. i posted pics on wall of shame of exactly that.
If the customer owns the unit then its on them.
I never understood why more landlords do not go after their previous tenants who destroy their units and instead turn them over top the next poor schmuck.

In commercial leases used in Pennsylvania, the landlord supplies operational units at the commencement of the lease, and the lessee must make certain that all systems are operating at the end of the lease. Some landlords are more savvy in this area than others. An inspection of the property by a trained inspector can result in a charge-back to the security deposit of the departing tenant.

Originally Posted by timebuilder

Usually, I have found that trying to improve a unit that was furnished by a landlord to a commercial lessee, who uses a third party service broker like Comfort or First, gives you a chance of success of "slim" and "none."

Their only concern, based on what I have experienced, is "does it work?"

True. i posted pics on wall of shame of exactly that.
If the customer owns the unit then its on them.
I never understood why more landlords do not go after their previous tenants who destroy their units and instead turn them over top the next poor schmuck.

Originally Posted by zachhvac

Turn those options into money when you can,if it will benefit the customer of course. I always try and improve any unit i work on during PM'S

Usually, I have found that trying to improve a unit that was furnished by a landlord to a commercial lessee, who uses a third party service broker like Comfort or First, gives you a chance of success of "slim" and "none."

Their only concern, based on what I have experienced, is "does it work?"

Turn those options into money when you can,if it will benefit the customer of course. I always try and improve any unit i work on during PM'S

Spend a day servicing Tranes and Carriers, then the Lennox won't seem so bad. Nothing too wrong with Trane or Carrier, just not as easy to work on as the Lennox.
Put together a pdf collection of Lennox O&Ms on your thumb. Read through them and you'll learn to love these units.

Much love for the L-Series!

Gotta love a unit that has all the compressors on a raised platform that allows you to stand up with full access to them with the unit in normal operation.

2 thumbs up for being able to easily slide the blower out far enough to have full access for work on the belts, pulleys, bearings and motor comfortably without having to haul the whole assembly out of the unit.

There are some serious advantages to a unit that has 4 compressors, each with its own refrigerant circuit, over a system with 1 or 2 large compressors.
If one of them goes down, that circuit can be removed from service until the compressor is replaced, and replacing 1 of 4 5 ton scroll compressors is one hell of a lot cheaper than replacing 1 20 ton compressor.

Originally Posted by Tiger93rsl

I agree the L-series is the best RTU on the market today. Their self test features and the two digit diagnostic display makes the lennox RTU the easiest to diagnose, in my opnion.

I agree.

Let's use a car analogy.

If you order a car (or a service truck) with crank windows, and you take off the inner door panel, you will see that there is a wiring harness connector for the power motor and the window switch, along with the power locks. The car is configured to easily accept the optional equipment that is offered.

The L-Series does a lot of things as a baseline unit, but it is just as cost effective to make it easily expandable using the small boards that are mounted on the A55 board on standoffs. Sometimes, the ETCO settings are not set up correctly, and you will see a spurious code for say, a humidity sensor that was never installed.

On the whole, this unit design is tech-friendly. The only thing it needs is pressure transducers and thermistors for SC and SH!!

My favorite feature is that if is sees a low pressure switch open (S78?) three times, it locks out that compressor to protect it. And, it then generates a no AC service call, allowing us to get to the unit before if burns up that compressor.

While the wiring diagrams are unnecessarily strange, these are good units that are pretty easy to service and the parts are good quality.