Reply to Thread

Originally Posted by valdelocc

Let me clarify couple of things, based on my own experience, I worked non-union first and joined the union 15 or so years later, there is not comparison with the UA when it comes to training,pay and benefits. ABC is a joke and mouth piece for the contractors, they are good at pretending to be something else. There is not such thing as "union bosses" we the members chose our union leadership by democratic elections and all members in good standing can run for any union position. My local supports republican and democrats financially, we support FRIENDS OF LABOR,The republican party long ago became the party of the rich and their advocacy went against whats good for the working men.

Those guys are the "rinos," and they are being kicked out a dozen at a time. Make no mistake, Nancy Pelosi and Mitt Romney are closer in positions that anyone of their constituents can imagine. Their interest is power and appearance. That's why Romney hates Trump...he does not "appear" they way they want him to appear. He is more for us, and not for the club of rinos and Dems.

It used to be that both groups could lie to us. Those days are over.

Originally Posted by Answer-Man

valdelocc

I agree with 99% of what you just said. Except (hate is a strong word and rarely us it) but I have no time and wish that every one of the politicians in congress loose their re-election campaign. They are not looking out for me, the unions or anyone who works for a living, there is no friend to labor in DC just my opinion

Pretty much 100% accurate.

Originally Posted by timebuilder

Sine this is a union vs non-union thread, I will again share my ideas.

An HVAC tech has the greatest income and retirement comfort potential as a union guy.

The training is generally first rate.

The pay is really good during the apprenticeship.

The pay is really, really good when you hit journeyman.

it can be even better if you make a deal to be paid over-scale, because of your merit.

All of that being said, the national office does not run the locals. They are independent, and in my experience, they lack enough business acumen to avoid acting foolishly.

For example,they act as if they have the jobs, when they don't. The signatory companies are the ones who get the work, estimate the jobs, get paid, and issue the checks.

Not the union.

Many years ago, it made sense to back one politcal party, when it was a moderate, real world party.

Now, that party is fully a global leftist party, and that politcal dogma does not work well with businesses. If you work well with businesses, you end up with more work, more workers, more dues, and more market share.

However, most bosses in unions fail to see that, because their background is socialist dogma going back to the days of the Molly Maguires.

Today, knowing which hand actually has the food in it best servers the interests of workers.

Words of wisdom.

I bailed from the union during the recession. They weren't doing anything to put food on my table. I'm not a union basher by any means.....but.....damn, many of the guys running the locals need to wake up. There are so many guys I work with that refuse to join the union because of the issues highlighted.

And the maddening part about it is......the highlighted parts really don't benefit the cause.

And, I'll say it again... I'm not a union basher. They have done some great things for the trades and the incomes/benefits for every HVAC skilled tradesman.

valdelocc

I agree with 99% of what you just said. Except (hate is a strong word and rarely us it) but I have no time and wish that every one of the politicians in congress loose their re-election campaign. They are not looking out for me, the unions or anyone who works for a living, there is no friend to labor in DC just my opinion

Let me clarify couple of things, based on my own experience, I worked non-union first and joined the union 15 or so years later, there is not comparison with the UA when it comes to training,pay and benefits. ABC is a joke and mouth piece for the contractors, they are good at pretending to be something else. There is not such thing as "union bosses" we the members chose our union leadership by democratic elections and all members in good standing can run for any union position. My local supports republican and democrats financially, we support FRIENDS OF LABOR,The republican party long ago became the party of the rich and their advocacy went against whats good for the working men.

I 100% agree with what TB said, but wish to add just a little more:

While I hold a high regard for the union it ended up not being what I wanted or where I wanted to take my career. You got to remember I started down this path in the 1970's so many things have changed since then. I was union trained and paid my dues for about 25 years. But when I wanted to learn and do more the union said: Sorry that is not within our program nor is it part of our trade. I trained many apprentices. Many still call when they are stumped or need just a little help.

When I decided to move out on my own, the union was more than willing and encouraged me to hire union labor. But at that point my union left me. I was now the boss my job was oversight not in the field. It was frowned on that the boss did actual work. But I loved the hands on stuff. Over the years I have hired union, but I ran a non-union shop and paid equal to or better than scale, benefits comparable. I mean no one in the union was going to tell me how I needed to run my shop and they tried. They mailed me a withdrawal card and said if I terminated my shop I was welcome back, that was just over 20 years ago.

To this day I encourage those interested in the trade to try and get into a union program. But you know what ABC and PHC both now have approved non-union programs that are every bit as good with respect to training. As for wages by time most have completed they are earning journeyman scale.

Good Luck

Sine this is a union vs non-union thread, I will again share my ideas.

An HVAC tech has the greatest income and retirement comfort potential as a union guy.

The training is generally first rate.

The pay is really good during the apprenticeship.

The pay is really, really good when you hit journeyman.

it can be even better if you make a deal to be paid over-scale, because of your merit.

All of that being said, the national office does not run the locals. They are independent, and in my experience, they lack enough business acumen to avoid acting foolishly.

For example, they act as if they have the jobs, when they don't. The signatory companies are the ones who get the work, estimate the jobs, get paid, and issue the checks.

Not the union.

Many years ago, it made sense to back one politcal party, when it was a moderate, real world party.

Now, that party is fully a global leftist party, and that politcal dogma does not work well with businesses. If you work well with businesses, you end up with more work, more workers, more dues, and more market share.

However, most bosses in unions fail to see that, because their background is socialist dogma going back to the days of the Molly Maguires.

Today, knowing which hand actually has the food in it best servers the interests of workers.

Legalized marijuana does not mean if is safe for a worker to use it. Most insurance carriers will not allow a worker in a physical job like ours, where falls and maiming are possible, to have marijuana traces in their system. If you sit and code all day, that is a different matter.

Our local does not allow marijuana even tho we are in a legalized state. (Wa) just FYI

Originally Posted by jonkethvac

serious question im about to graduate and get my cert. what if youre ex military and you arent looking for medical coverage or insurance at all. i also invest in small multifamily so i dont really want my retirement to be involved in my job? is there still a reason to go union or could i stay non union.
p.s. i take cannabis for ptsd

As others have said the chances are that a union job will still give you the most income for now and the future. You may or may not be able to negotiate for more pay in lieu of benefits but don't even try that until after you have negotiated pay in the first place.

As far as the medical marijuana I would check your states laws and policies . Even in a favorable state I would still expect it to be a hurdle in most cases. Good luck!

"Some states allow employers to prohibit the use of medical Marijuana for safety and other reasons. In these states, employers may be able to maintain a zero-tolerance drug-free workplace policy. In other states, however, they may be prohibited or restricted from taking adverse employment actions.

Whether or not a company decides to accommodate medical Marijuana is dependent upon a variety of laws."

Originally Posted by jonkethvac

serious question im about to graduate and get my cert. what if youre ex military and you arent looking for medical coverage or insurance at all. i also invest in small multifamily so i dont really want my retirement to be involved in my job? is there still a reason to go union or could i stay non union.
p.s. i take cannabis for ptsd

Just some friendly advise the next time you have a question after reading a 12 year old thread, Just put your question in a new thread

Secondly if you want to work trades and many companies do drug and alcohol testing you may wish to talk to your Dr. and get something else for the PTSD. Because if you came back with a failed test for pot (or alcohol), I'm not hiring you and I know many who think the same way.

I'm pretty sure you would need a prescription if that substance showed up in a urine test, won't get on a large construction site or accepted to an apprenticeship with a positive. Around here projects at colleges and schools are amost always subject to testing. Hi-rise, airport and pharmaceutical also. If you think you want to be involved in the install and commissioning of large projects, you will need to address it.

H&W is a big part of the total union compensation package, right now $22.21 per hour goes to my insurance, pension and annuity funds. Don't know any way around it.
I also don't know of any non-union techs who receive a significantly higher in the pocket wage than union rate, but the lead techs at City facility or Remco are probably in the union rate ball park.

The UA has a great program, Veterans in Piping, but I believe, you need to enter it pre-separation.

Originally Posted by sabre11134

stay union,will you have a pension working non union ?

serious question im about to graduate and get my cert. what if youre ex military and you arent looking for medical coverage or insurance at all. i also invest in small multifamily so i dont really want my retirement to be involved in my job? is there still a reason to go union or could i stay non union.
p.s. i take cannabis for ptsd

I've just gone over to the union side (UA local 250) and so far so good. My previous company was none union and really wasn't bad at all. However I wanted the training and classroom learning to fill in the gaps in my knowledge. Went from $29/hr no bennies, no 401k, no holidays off to 1st year apprentice wages but I have so much more overall I'm very happy.

Don't know if it ever really was. Right now in this economy, a job union or not is the best way to go.

So is the union still the best way to go or is the economy not right for it?

union!!

First off I'm going to say, it's what you make it out to be. I'm getting ready to go to work for a Residential/Light Commercial union shop. This shop's signatory to the NSMA, which disregards the A, B & C card classifications of our union local and instead it bases off of the Journeyman (A Card). An C Card Service Tech which is our local classification for R/LC makes about $23/Hr. on the check. A Tradesman 3 under the NSMA which is also for R/LC makes about $31/Hr. I prefer union, but not only union, union using the NSMA!
If you're under the employ of a non-union shop and they're taking good care of you, then you better be a lifer. Once you and that shop seperate say good bye to your health & welfare. Even if you have $100,000 in your retirement plan, you probably put $80,000 of it in yourself! What's the point of matching your contributions up to $1/Hr., if you're the one putting in $4/Hr. of your wage?! Even my future shop is going to be putting in $4.50/Hr. for me. At 40 hrs for 50 wks, that's $9,000 none of which will come out of my wage!! When deciding whether union or non-union, it comes down to economics, but a lot of you seem to have less mathematical skills than my youngest child.

Your industrial would be our "A". Your commercial would be our "B". I figured 10% to 20% of our local is "A"/industrial.

Originally Posted by BergerMech Rob

I don't know about the whole "A" or "B" thing, but in my area, there's industrial journeyman techs and commercial journeyman techs. Commercial covers everything up to 100 tons, and everything larger than that gets serviced by the industrial guys. I don't personally know or know of anyone working at MES scale.

I don't know how accurate this is, if at all, but I'd venture to say that probably 10-15% of the workforce here is at industrial scale or better.

Originally Posted by absrbrtek

Ive seen the MESJ rates, I have seen all the rates, fitters, plumbers, Reading, etc. Im BTJ plus a few extras thrown in to keep me happy. There are not many "A" rate service techs left. The "A" equipment gets less every contract. Tonnages go up, equipment gets deleted, etc. We have 80 "B" guys with 10 "A" service techs in our shop. I would venture to say that only 10% to 20% of service gets the "A" rate, if that. IMO I think Ill be lucky if the "A" service rate doesnt disapear before I retire. Don't get me wrong, I'm union all the way, however lets look at this realisticly from a service prespective, not a fitters.
Now I'm talking about equipment service such as chillers, not welding or fitting here.

What percentage of the HVAC service techs get the "A" rate would you estimate?

I don't know about the whole "A" or "B" thing, but in my area, there's industrial journeyman techs and commercial journeyman techs. Commercial covers everything up to 100 tons, and everything larger than that gets serviced by the industrial guys. I don't personally know or know of anyone working at MES scale.

I don't know how accurate this is, if at all, but I'd venture to say that probably 10-15% of the workforce here is at industrial scale or better.

Originally Posted by txhvac

I have a possibilty to go to work for a union shop, I am very interested. All my experience has been w/ open shops, here in the D/FW area there are few union shops. I've heard the benefits are very good, I have a family so I am interested, I also understand they supply your tools. Can someone tell me about some other benefits? Are the union benefits the same from state to state? How's the 401k or retirement? Continuing education? Any major difference from open shops? Thanks for any responses.

The bottom of the line union or non-union is the contractor you are going to work for. You could work for a great non-union shop that takes great care of you and pays decent wages etc. You could work for a union shop that doe's the same. Our union shop just paid us bonuses because they are having a great summer.

Now the difference is, if you work for a non-union shop that treats you like $hit, makes false promises and doesn't pay well your kind of screwed. If you work for a bad union contractor (which im sure there are plenty), at least you have a partner that will fight for your rights and make sure that bad contractor meets your contract benefits and wages.

People sit and bash unions when half the time you should be bashing the crappy contractor that happens to be a union mimber. IMO

If you get a great deal with non-union do it. Just don't sit and cry to me if you aren't getting paid.

I went union 16 years ago and It turned out to be a great decision.