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I worked for a Florida School System as the Lead HVAC DDC Tech for 19 years. We had Siemens Apogee, Johnson Controls N2 and 5.2, Alerton system.
The issue we faced was only having 2 Control techs to cover 90 schools with different controls systems installed to quickly to meet the contract deadline. I was the computer admin the took care of the servers and laptops. I kept them updated with installing the HVAC software to help save the district money. The big issue was not forcing what was in the specifications.
They was adding lighting to the DDC system when I resigned in May 2012.

I am much happier where I am now.

Originally Posted by XcelTech

RubberDuckee was Bert best friend until a woman got in the middle. Oh sure, life was full of bath times and lot of fun but bubbling below the surface was another story. Bert was awfully found of RubberDuckee, until she boo boopy dupped into the scene. That is when it became a blood bath.

LMAO !!!

A reincarnate of a member that had more chances then most here.

Originally Posted by air1

Who's RubberDuckee2 and why is he banned?

RubberDuckee was Bert best friend until a woman got in the middle. Oh sure, life was full of bath times and lot of fun but bubbling below the surface was another story. Bert was awfully found of RubberDuckee, until she boo boopy dupped into the scene. That is when it became a blood bath.

Who's RubberDuckee2 and why is he banned?

RubberDuckee2,

Yup Busted again

What happens in a large district like this is a bunch of installations that are steamy piles of doodoo. When the mess gets large enough, in the true American way you go out and buy some Hefty bags over the top of everything to control the smell because everything got way out of hand.

People do this with all the time with middleware and top side solutions, usually proprietary in some major way. Now you see Hefty-bag solutions with Analytical packages. You have people spending big dollars with secondary databases mining for individual little stinking piles of doodoo when these things can mostly be done at the controller level with modern technology. And, usually someone like a school district doesn't realize analytic packages need full time staff to run it so even that starts to smell. Secondly, there isn't enough staff to keep up with maintenance and repairs. How the heck are they supposed to chase economizers that may be "sparking" a bad line from time to time? ROI makes the case? See three sentences previous.

The problem really starts at the specifications. It wasn't good enough to begin with, and did not compensate for a two tier level of system and individual building. There are no goals, no objectives, and no objective thinking. The result is the whole thing stinks. If there are some flowers tossed in the mix there is almost no way to smell anything good.

And, when I say specifiers, I mean ASHRAE educated specifiers in the US. The majority of them have not even a marginally good idea what it takes to put together a control specification properly.

Basparky,
You realize you are no longer anonymous and will fall prey to interweb groupies don't you.

We work on and with numerous School Districts. The single most common complaint I hear is that the Operating Personnel cannot get service/answers/assistance when stuff hits the fan. Second most common complaint is that a Controls Contractor installed a certain brand of controls and then restricts access to it so that "Only the Contractor" can access or service said system and the enduser is held hostage to that contractor. That is just wrong on many levels and, if it's not already, it should be illegal. (a little venting there)

I know that your School District has intelegent people, in key positions, that are working to inprove both the HVAC systems and the Controls Systems throughout the District. I think you will agree it took a long time for all that stuff to get to it's present condition and it will take a while to get it all straightened out.

You have my number, I know you'll can when you need help (dang it) !

Thanks for all the great input from everyone!

And yeh Kelly, it's Brian.
I work for Denver Public Schools so everyone knows.
Personally, I'd like to become up to date on FX and NAE supervisory engineering. I did take a week of AX classes when I was first learning techin' and FX seems friendly enough... just so much more to learn and do with.
Most of our stuff is some generation of JCI product.
That being said, the Delta stuff is super easy and intuitive. The KMC could just have a JACE for a front end, the ALC is simple enough unless we'd have to reprogram a controller, the Siemens, ehhhhh, we don't have that much of it and I haven't yet had to work with it (still under warranty), I use to install a ton of it in years past... Would love extra training in DX9100 'cause we have so damn many, the JCI ASC controllers seem pretty easy and intuitive. Now we're getting a bunch of FEC's and PCT's which seem friendly enough...

All in all, points is points. I think concentrating on supervisory systems may be the smart thing to do.

It has been my experience expiring licensing on software and server packages along with old PC's is much harder to manage then protocols. I would pick a two tier system with the bottom level allowing for field bus protocols and the top level BACnet or OPC. Then I would divorce the front end OWS from the installation and use routing. Controls long term costs.

Usually, if something is "tricky" this means you don't want to use the "tricky" features. And, it doesn't all need to be BACnet to work.

What it does need is someone on top of your organization aware and making the good decisions not to die of a thousand system cuts with tricky little special things.

I agree that having standards would make it easier to manage multiple manufacture BAS systems. Unfortunately unless everything is BACnet it would be difficult to use a single front-end for the entire site so you would have to knowledgeable of multiple systems. Also, each manufacture uses different Application Specific Controllers and integrating them to a master front-end would be tricky at the least.
My experience with sites that use multiple systems is that it increases the complexity of the BAS system. Increased complexity requires a higher level of expertise to manage the system.

Originally Posted by air1

The problem with so many different systems is you can't be an expert on all of them. I would have a tech specialize on one or two systems while still being able to backup the other techs.

You shouldn't worry about manufacturer systems. You should concentrate on standards and protocols and make the installers of those systems follow your rules for visualization.

Much easier solution. Granted, not many do it. What it means is most facilities do things backwards.

The problem with so many different systems is you can't be an expert on all of them. I would have a tech specialize on one or two systems while still being able to backup the other techs.

Sounds like your a little understaffed.Where I am at we cover 2 milion square feet with five hvac techs,three plumbers,three electricians,and 1 handyman.All buildings within walking distance.

Originally Posted by billcontrols

The problem with the sole source of control product is the non competitive bidding that results. Control prices will go through the roof if you do not have a competitive bidding environment. I have seen it happen.

Bill

You're right on that one. You have to definately weigh out your options. Sometimes we would do "best value bids" instead of low bid or propriatary where we scored options (cost, specifications, shipping, availability, vender references, service, roi, reliability, etc). Each category was given a score and the highest score won. That's oversimplified of course but we got what we needed w/o bid protests. That could be an option to propriatary or low bid.

Anyway you look at it 162 schools is a big ship to change course. What do you see as your prefered controls if you had the option of changing them all out?

The problem with the sole source of control product is the non competitive bidding that results. Control prices will go through the roof if you do not have a competitive bidding environment. I have seen it happen.

Bill

Oh I have no idea what district was being referenced. I was just relating my experience at Jeffco in the late 90's. I had a similar experience at DPS & Littleton districts.

Brian ? Is that you ?

controlgeek, did you just assume because he lists lakewood he works for Jeffco ? I suspect he works for a different School District.

I also work for a large school dist. here we do do HVAC and control i see your frustration we used to have many different kind of EMS and havc units we asked
our management to put in inspect of put only one or two EMS system also the same
for A/C units we have along way. i used to go around one roof top i would fine
many different kind of units, communicating with higher management paid off
for us.

From what I know in the late 90's Jefferson County took low bid regardless of brand and tried to do a large quantity of projects over the summer. So many at some times that I wondered how they could physically be commissioned properly given the limited resources and overtime being worked just to get the install completed. After that they are turned over to a short handed staff at the school district who I never thought would have the time to properly tune a new system or find issues that were undiscovered at startup much less become knowledgeable enough in the various brands to be comfortable troubleshooting them. Zoning may help with travel time but probably means more bodies are needed which generally are not approved for hire in these economic times.

It always amazes me how simple it is to pick and prove the savings and forethought of choosing to simplify HVAC systems by using the same equipment over and over again and how stupid our civic offices are that they cannot see the long view of this. Then they try to preach looking to the future and what laws or choices they make now will be to our benefit in the future.

I use to work at DFW International Airport and it had multiple system in the same terminal let alone in different terminals. So yes, it is very common.