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Originally Posted by mechdorn

I usually have to turn to my home desktop PC, it has crazy amounts of memory and horse power. Most companies would never buy anything like it.

Same here. I use a Dell Precision for work, and I bought an Alienware for the graphics stuff.

I use Google sketchup. I've done a lot 3D plans with it. I'll agree with some that they just want to see the data, I'm like that. I know what it all means, most of my customers do not. The one thing I've learned with 3-D floor plans is how to convey where the person looking at the graphic can find the location of the problem area. Here is what I've learned, people are people, we all know where the bathrooms are, where the break rooms are, where the main entrance ways are, where the money maker departments or machines are, and where the conference rooms are. When I make a floorplan, I'll have a row of 7 offices with nothing in them, then I'll deck out the conference room or bathroom that's in the same row of the offices. It gives the operator a kind of way point to reference from. I also hyperlink everything from the floor plan graphic to the specific graphic of that AHU, VAV, RTU, etc. As far as development of the graphics, you need a kick butt PC. Like I said I use Sketchup those file grow real quick, 250 mb on some, I have some of other programs mentioned here, they seem to grow as fast as well. I have a great company laptop, a Dell precision with extras, it chokes on some of the larger files. I usually have to turn to my home desktop PC, it has crazy amounts of memory and horse power. Most companies would never buy anything like it.

Very True about the wasted space.

Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy

Sure, it LOOKS nice, but that angle, and having everything obscured, makes it completely useless. You end up having to put all the relevant data in spaces around the image, making it do nothing but take up space. This, while not as flashy, would be much easier to make, operate, use, and troubleshoot. More detailed information for a given component (like all operating data for a pump's VFD) can be done in pop-ups by clicking the pump icon itself.

I made this up as a mock-up in inkscape, but it shows pretty much everything you need to know, in likely less screen space than the pre-rendered graphics that can't really convey any information. An entire plant could be represented on one large screen with simplified graphics like this, and still not be overwhelmingly cluttered. (perfect for wall-mounted big-screen type status board displays).

One of my customers also mentioned the angles, so I went back to the drawing board and created a more simple version.

Originally Posted by TheBladeJN

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I had a company create this attached image of an Air Cooled Chiller, and they used 3D Studio Max. They were able to match the angles of my pumps so it fit nice.

Sure, it LOOKS nice, but that angle, and having everything obscured, makes it completely useless. You end up having to put all the relevant data in spaces around the image, making it do nothing but take up space. This, while not as flashy, would be much easier to make, operate, use, and troubleshoot. More detailed information for a given component (like all operating data for a pump's VFD) can be done in pop-ups by clicking the pump icon itself.

I made this up as a mock-up in inkscape, but it shows pretty much everything you need to know, in likely less screen space than the pre-rendered graphics that can't really convey any information. An entire plant could be represented on one large screen with simplified graphics like this, and still not be overwhelmingly cluttered. (perfect for wall-mounted big-screen type status board displays).

I've had customers that didn't even care if the data on the screen was accurate. As long as it looked amazing and they could show it off, they could care less.

Of course, any good controls guy would rather see a points list with live data any day over pretty pictures.

I prefer raw data when I'm troubleshooting, but graphics are actually what got me into controls in the first place, so of course that's one of my main strengths.

9 times out of 10, the customer is not controls savvy and if they don't have an exact representation, they are completely lost. (At least that's been my experience.)

90% of my projects I do custom graphics specific to whats really on site. When your proficient at it, and can get it done without impacting your bottom line, it's worth it. I've gotten lots of compliments from my customers, and they really enjoy the interface I provide them with.

Originally Posted by sycontrol

I haven't d/l any of the software yet. Will this allow you to take a picture of say a chiller and then import it and make it into a graphic? Kinda like what I attached? We had a RTU that a company did for us. when we sent the picture you could see foot prints on the white roof. When they sent the graphic back to us, there were the foot prints lol.

The attachment is chiller we have at one of our sites. We made the pic sent it to someone (I have no idea who or where, it was before my time here) and they sent this back. Will the software mentioned here do this?

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I had a company create this attached image of an Air Cooled Chiller, and they used 3D Studio Max. They were able to match the angles of my pumps so it fit nice.

Originally Posted by TheBladeJN

I have no idea why anyone would want a 3D graphical floorplan.

I have seen them, it takes away from the data on the screen.

Yeah, the people who foot the bills for projects like to see shiny, blinky and flashy even if they have absolutely no real usage in their system. I had a friend that could sell $100k jobs all week long just because the fan on the screen goes round and round.

I agree with the useless 'realistic representations' of air handlers, RTU's, etc.

It is much better to have an Oblique Angle cut-way view with semi realistic equipment such as dampers, fans etc.

Another thing that is a useless between jobs in a perspective view that changes size from left to right. Can use this graphic on a second project if the equipment is slightly different.

All of my air side equipment graphics are Oblique so anyone that knows how to use Microsoft paint or other simple graphics programs can cut and paste from one project to another.

Thanks

Originally Posted by TheBladeJN

I have no idea why anyone would want a 3D graphical floorplan.

I have seen them, it takes away from the data on the screen.

No operator would ever want them.
No controls tech would ever want them.
No mechanical tech would ever want them.
Unfortunately, none of them pay for the project.

That said, if the management/engineers/architects DO request 3D graphics, just make sure they are VERY overhead view, so they are almost 2D. This will maximize the utility of them, while still meeting the job's requirements.

On the same token, I hate 'realistic representations' of air handlers, RTU's, etc. They are no where near as useful as a simple rectangular duct cutaway.

I have no idea why anyone would want a 3D graphical floorplan.

I have seen them, it takes away from the data on the screen.

Ask the neighbor kids to do it for a few bucks... odds are they'd do as well or better than some of the 'professionals'.. :-)

I have worked with Alpert at BAS Graphics on several occasions and was extremely pleased each time. Worth every penny compared to having an anal retentive non-artistic type like myself spend ridiculous amounts of time trying to get it just right.

To answer OP. We have used BAS Graphics (Alper and the gang), ControlGraphics and 1 or 2 local people. Both of the above have done a good to great job for us. The locals not so great.

The biggest Issue is YOU have to know what you want ! Things like color sets, what kind of extensions, etc. Do you want windows in your exterior walls, elevator shafts, entry doors, passage doors, duct runs displayed in relative sizes, different objects for VAV's and Fan Powered VAV's and so on.

Unless you have capability to re-size the *.jpg or *.png files you also need to tell your Graphics developer what the final size and resolution should be.

Over all I prefer ControlGraphics because I have been working with some of the indviduals for over 10 years. We have always gotten fast turn around on any thing we needed fixed.

Crap, I almost sound like a commercial for them! Sorry. JMO

I haven't d/l any of the software yet. Will this allow you to take a picture of say a chiller and then import it and make it into a graphic? Kinda like what I attached? We had a RTU that a company did for us. when we sent the picture you could see foot prints on the white roof. When they sent the graphic back to us, there were the foot prints lol.

The attachment is chiller we have at one of our sites. We made the pic sent it to someone (I have no idea who or where, it was before my time here) and they sent this back. Will the software mentioned here do this?

+1 for google sketchup.


Cool stuff and not too hard to learn. You tube is full of demonstrations.

3D Floorplans...

Google Sketchup has tremendous support and provides a full library of files that can easily be modified to meet your needs for floorplans. Once you download the program, you will have full access to the users library and support from other users. Of course, once you have learned from others, you will want to pay it forward in order to help others.

The advantages of freeware...

CM01

the thing about 3ds Max is that it takes a pretty good computer to run it. my computer always crashes while in the middle of a floor plan.

Try them yourself using Blender. There is a little learning curve but the software is free. The thing that I like about Blender is that you can use any image file and with some plug-ins you can also use cad files.

Originally Posted by ControlY0urMind

3d Studio Max, Maya, Rhino 3d, Blender and Google Sketch are all programs that can be easily used to do floor plans.

I prefer Maya or 3ds Max because they work flawlessly with .dwg's and basically about any type of reference file type.

Sorry, I read the post wrong. Thought you asked "What do you use for your 3d floor plan graphics".

3d Studio Max, Maya, Rhino 3d, Blender and Google Sketch are all programs that can be easily used to do floor plans.

I prefer Maya or 3ds Max because they work flawlessly with .dwg's and basically about any type of reference file type.