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Originally Posted by 3rdlaw

... i was told its 60.00 smacks everytime we call them ..

yeah isn't that great?

what a scam

Originally Posted by 3rdlaw

on the controllers its a new style eev using kelvinator controller ... i will try to sneak a call to micro therm on specifics ... i was told its 60.00 smacks everytime we call them ..

Ok kool I know the control you put in, it's nice the mtt one is nicer imo

Second thought maybe the customers internal department for refrig settings could tell you. At the end of the day if you can keep the sub cooling at minimum 10 f all the time and no sr value alarms you could be good.

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3rdlaw could put an e-mail address in his profile.

i tried to send you a private message, but you are not registered

on the controllers its a new style eev using kelvinator controller ... i will try to sneak a call to micro therm on specifics ... i was told its 60.00 smacks everytime we call them ..

Originally Posted by 3rdlaw

Greetings all , i recently participated in a small retrofit on a kysor warren rack . This is a glycol system and i was there to replace old style sporlan electronic valves used for the subcoolers and chillers per sporlan to a new style valve .. One of the issues that came up was satisfying the envirogaurd #s to assure proper refrigerant levels.This system uses a micro therm controller ... According to ksyor rep i was working with 2 things were being looked at reciever % and enviroguard #s , they want enviroguard @ 10 and depending on ambient reciever level ie;80-30 deg 35% . It should be noted that prior to this revelation all cases at temp no flashing at site glass etc ... i was instructed to add a couple hundred lbs each rack to meet above #s ... yes i leak check store none found ... that being said Ksyor couldn't give me a direct answer on how enviroguard works or point me to some definitive literature.... any insight would be greatly appreciated i would really like to understand system... thanx in advance .

I think i know the system you are talking about, sounds like a system that i am familiar with, its probably a store that you need a membership card to shop at! you will be hard pressed to find literature on the set up of that rack. \

if it is the one i am thinking of which i am pretty sure it is because you gave away a couple key words haha it has a different take on the original enviroguard, the ccontrol startegy is different, it uses a dump solenoid, drain solenoid and a pressurization solenoid for the reciever. the reciever is maintained at 10psi under cond outlet pressure to controll the speed of the enviroguard dump.

its main goal is to maintain 10\f subcooling minimum at all times, also if this is the place that i think of you can getthe numbers of the settings from the customers refrig department or from micro therm,

what controllers did you swap out to run on the sporlann eevs\? sporlan or MTT?

mike

thanx i am diggin in ..

Originally Posted by 3rdlaw

thanx for the reply ... with cooler ambient temperatures approaching i want to have as much working knowledge as possible ... we have two glycol stores that have a combination of glycol and dx racks usining 507 refrigerant and enviroguard . Still learning any literature greatly appreciated .

Lot's of good info here.

http://www.hillphoenix.com/refrigera...second-nature/

thanx for the reply ... with cooler ambient temperatures approaching i want to have as much working knowledge as possible ... we have two glycol stores that have a combination of glycol and dx racks usining 507 refrigerant and enviroguard . Still learning any literature greatly appreciated .

Originally Posted by 3rdlaw

Greetings all , i recently participated in a small retrofit on a kysor warren rack . This is a glycol system and i was there to replace old style sporlan electronic valves used for the subcoolers and chillers per sporlan to a new style valve .. One of the issues that came up was satisfying the envirogaurd #s to assure proper refrigerant levels.This system uses a micro therm controller ... According to ksyor rep i was working with 2 things were being looked at reciever % and enviroguard #s , they want enviroguard @ 10 and depending on ambient reciever level ie;80-30 deg 35% . It should be noted that prior to this revelation all cases at temp no flashing at site glass etc ... i was instructed to add a couple hundred lbs each rack to meet above #s ... yes i leak check store none found ... that being said Ksyor couldn't give me a direct answer on how enviroguard works or point me to some definitive literature.... any insight would be greatly appreciated i would really like to understand system... thanx in advance .

I had to retrofit an enviroguard rack from a Johnson Controls board to CPC. Had to enter a program in CPC's einstein to handle the enviroguard. Whenever a compressor is running, refrigerant is bled back via a capillary from the receiver to the condenser loop. The receiver is not part of the condenser loop normally. (ie refrigerant bypasses it.) This gradually lowers the receiver level and increases subcooling. When subcooling exceeds 15 degrees valves are opened to rapidly remove refrigerant from the condenser and return it to the receiver. This must happen at least every 6 hours or an alarm is generated. The idea is that if you do not have to regularly return refrigerant to the receiver you must be losing it somewhere. In practice if you have a sudden drop in temperature over 6 hours the system will nuisance alarm as it can't flood the condenser fast enough. Also design spec usually calls for the condenser to be 15 ft higher than the rack which not all installations are. I had some racks where 5 degree subcooling was adequate. A longer delay on the alarm is usually a good idea, otherwise the store starts ignoring it. The 80-30 deg 35% is a recommendation for initial charge. Sounds like they wanted 10 degree subcooling for the return to receiver setpoint.

kysor warren enviroguard

Greetings all , i recently participated in a small retrofit on a kysor warren rack . This is a glycol system and i was there to replace old style sporlan electronic valves used for the subcoolers and chillers per sporlan to a new style valve .. One of the issues that came up was satisfying the envirogaurd #s to assure proper refrigerant levels.This system uses a micro therm controller ... According to ksyor rep i was working with 2 things were being looked at reciever % and enviroguard #s , they want enviroguard @ 10 and depending on ambient reciever level ie;80-30 deg 35% . It should be noted that prior to this revelation all cases at temp no flashing at site glass etc ... i was instructed to add a couple hundred lbs each rack to meet above #s ... yes i leak check store none found ... that being said Ksyor couldn't give me a direct answer on how enviroguard works or point me to some definitive literature.... any insight would be greatly appreciated i would really like to understand system... thanx in advance .

Originally Posted by eng&tech

Im not trying to be a homer (HP) I would just like to understand it more from a technical stand point.

Does HP have anything on them at all???? Here's a pic of a 2006 HP rack, split header running Enviroguard III Again just like the Kysor i started this thread off with and ones like this Hill, it's like everybody does it but only Tyler names it. I guss it could be that copyright stuff and people from hill and kysor just build what the custome tells them to. I'll have to check the HP binder that is in that comp room to see if there's any write up on it. The Kysor book that came with the other rack does not say anything on it.

Mike

Originally Posted by eng&tech

Thanks for the diagram, I hope to see one of these next month when Im up in Minnesota (RSES Conference) . I'm not sure I understand how it saves refrgerant, I keep reading in the sale lit. that it saves up to 35% on refrgerant. But it looks to me that we are just stacking refrigerant in the condensor, running all the condensor fans to keep the head down and as long as the ambient is below 60F were good to go. Once the amibiet goes up we energize the inlet solenoild and put the refrigerant back into the reciever?? I guess thats why we dont have them in the south. Im not trying to be a homer (HP) I would just like to understand it more from a technical stand point.

My understanding is that whenever a compressor is running refrigerant is removed from the receiver via a capillary tube and enters the main loop at the suction manifold. Under normal circumstances this added refrigerant increases subcooling and eventually head pressure until the enviroguard control returns some refrigerant to the receiver. In the event of a leak the length of time between the operation of the valve to return refrigerant becomes longer and theoretically an alarm can be sounded if the time between operation of this valve exceeds a certain value, typically 6 hours. In practice here in Iowa it is possible to go from 70 degrees ambient to 20 degrees in 6 hours so we can get false alarms from this change in temp. as it may require 6 hours of feed to get the condenser flooded appropriately for the temp. The system also requires that the condenser be 10 feet above the receiver, which is often overlooked when the installation is made.

The refrigerant savings is based on an assumption that in a normal system a leak will not be detected until it triggers a low receiver alarm. And in warmer weather you may lose a significant amount of refrigerant from the receiver before this happens.

Thanks for the diagram, I hope to see one of these next month when Im up in Minnesota (RSES Conference) . I'm not sure I understand how it saves refrgerant, I keep reading in the sale lit. that it saves up to 35% on refrgerant. But it looks to me that we are just stacking refrigerant in the condensor, running all the condensor fans to keep the head down and as long as the ambient is below 60F were good to go. Once the amibiet goes up we energize the inlet solenoild and put the refrigerant back into the reciever?? I guess thats why we dont have them in the south. Im not trying to be a homer (HP) I would just like to understand it more from a technical stand point.

Originally Posted by icemeister

I'm glad I saved a copy before Tyler's recent demise. Hill/Phoenix apparently dropped it from their Tyler on-line literature collection.

It's surprising eng&tech didn't have it...since he works for H/P.

I think i have a hard copy of that book, I didn't look through the whole pdf yet but i think it's the same as the book I have that only shows the original Envirouured that uses mechanical valves for operation, I'll take another look.

Originally Posted by eng&tech

does anyone have a piping diagram of the Enviro3 they can share?? We dont see any of these in the south, at least that I know of.

here ya go...



Mike

I'm glad I saved a copy before Tyler's recent demise. Hill/Phoenix apparently dropped it from their Tyler on-line literature collection.

It's surprising eng&tech didn't have it...since he works for H/P.

Thanks, ice.

There was squat on the Kysor site.

Originally Posted by eng&tech

does anyone have a piping diagram of the Enviro3 they can share?? We dont see any of these in the south, at least that I know of.

See Section 26......

does anyone have a piping diagram of the Enviro3 they can share?? We dont see any of these in the south, at least that I know of.