Reply to Thread

I didn't read through the whole thread but I would consider the new Carrier or Bryant Greenspeeds or Extremes

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

Might want to pay heed to what Sky is saying... Those of us who have read his posts for years see he truly knows what he is talking about.

Originally Posted by damuri

This sort of attitude bothers me. I'm not trying to run a race team. I am trying to save on energy costs. And the biggest downside to geothermal is the very high installation cost. This is compounded by the uncertainty of the outcome and my confidence is further diminished when I meet contractors who seem to want to price the installation based on how much money it will save me over ten years rather than how much it would cost to install with a reasonable mark-up.

It reminds me of a time 5 years ago when building contractors would try to price their jobs based on the effect of the project on your home value rather than how much it costs.

The savings just aren't big enough (considering the cost of installation) to justify this sort of headache unless you just want to be able to tell your friends you use a geothermal heat pump. I mean seriously, it takes at least 7-10 years to get back your money and that assumes zero time value of money. You get on a payment plan and you might not break even for 15+ years.

You really need something closer to 3-5 year payback to really get people on the bandwagon. Maybe the technology isn't there yet, maybe the industry is price skimming because there simply isn't enough demand to aggressively chase business, probably both. I don't think this technology or industry is mature enough to really attract a broader audience.

I think you need to revisit what your saying. Many homeowners look to geo to have a 3-5 year payback as you mentioned, a lot of times it can not be done, well then geo is not for you. I often see homeowners who are convinced geo is the way for them to go, and I always agree it should at least be considered, but it is NOT for all people, if you are price shopping you will likely get screwed and would be better off with a good air source or fossil fuel system.

Second why are you looking at a 3-5 year payback for it to be attractive, how much are you getting on your investments year over year? a 3 year payback is a 24% rate of return! a 5 year paback is a 14.4% rate of return and a 10 year payback is a 7.2% rate of return. I would gladly take a guaranteed 7.2% rate of return that keeps me comfortable and has no noise and raises the value of my home over its full life that a hope that the stock market will return 8%. Secondly the money you save from geo is after tax, not before tax money so even at a 10 year payback that is a VERY good return.

Im sorry but you do not sound like somebody that needs a geo system, you want cheap so good luck. If you get a working system I am glad to hear, but if you go with the cheapest installer who does not size properly and does not know how to put in a ground loop and puts in a short loop and you run on backup heat and your bills go up, don't come here complaining.

Originally Posted by dorff

Experience definitely counts. I never tell a potential customer what size of unit we will be installing until they sign. I don't need people shopping around with my design. As far as humidity, look into Nortec. Filters are a bit tougher depending on your home, pets etc.

Why would anyone sign with you? If a large part of the value you provide is just coming up with the size of the unit, then how much value are you really adding overall?

Cost is pretty important.

Originally Posted by SkyHeating

Im sorry but Geothermal is NOT a place to shop for a lowest quote, its for the best install. I know a few contractors in my area that are thousands less than me, so where do they save? First they don't use the correct fittings for the desuperheater plumbing, second, they use lower cost units that have half the warranty and half the track record and a lower efficiency than what I use. Next they design a loop that is way to small, this saves them on excavation costs and pipe/labor costs. A short loop is the worst case scenario because it will cost so much more to fix it than to just do it right in the first place. A short loop will not let the unit reach rated efficiency, it will cost more to operate, run in backup heat more and possible not cool the house.

Choose installer first,
brand second
price last

I always use the racecar example for quality. You can hire a professional race car driver to run his race car around the track and he will be fast and safe, or you can hire some Joe off the street and even with the same car and same safety systems he would probably crash the race car and cost more money than if you just hired the right person in the first place.

This sort of attitude bothers me. I'm not trying to run a race team. I am trying to save on energy costs. And the biggest downside to geothermal is the very high installation cost. This is compounded by the uncertainty of the outcome and my confidence is further diminished when I meet contractors who seem to want to price the installation based on how much money it will save me over ten years rather than how much it would cost to install with a reasonable mark-up.

It reminds me of a time 5 years ago when building contractors would try to price their jobs based on the effect of the project on your home value rather than how much it costs.

The savings just aren't big enough (considering the cost of installation) to justify this sort of headache unless you just want to be able to tell your friends you use a geothermal heat pump. I mean seriously, it takes at least 7-10 years to get back your money and that assumes zero time value of money. You get on a payment plan and you might not break even for 15+ years.

You really need something closer to 3-5 year payback to really get people on the bandwagon. Maybe the technology isn't there yet, maybe the industry is price skimming because there simply isn't enough demand to aggressively chase business, probably both. I don't think this technology or industry is mature enough to really attract a broader audience.

Originally Posted by Van Diesel

Geothermal systems are great, and if I were you I would shop around for the lowest quote. Some people will try to overcharge you on a certain aspect of it when it isn't warranted.

Im sorry but Geothermal is NOT a place to shop for a lowest quote, its for the best install. I know a few contractors in my area that are thousands less than me, so where do they save? First they don't use the correct fittings for the desuperheater plumbing, second, they use lower cost units that have half the warranty and half the track record and a lower efficiency than what I use. Next they design a loop that is way to small, this saves them on excavation costs and pipe/labor costs. A short loop is the worst case scenario because it will cost so much more to fix it than to just do it right in the first place. A short loop will not let the unit reach rated efficiency, it will cost more to operate, run in backup heat more and possible not cool the house.

Choose installer first,
brand second
price last

I always use the racecar example for quality. You can hire a professional race car driver to run his race car around the track and he will be fast and safe, or you can hire some Joe off the street and even with the same car and same safety systems he would probably crash the race car and cost more money than if you just hired the right person in the first place.

Geothermal systems are great, and if I were you I would shop around for the lowest quote. Some people will try to overcharge you on a certain aspect of it when it isn't warranted.

I have had a geothermal system in place since 2009 and have had nothing but the best experience in heating/cooling and savings. I have a 4 ton unit, each hole bored 180ft deep, 10 ft apart (ineither direction) from each hole and any foundations, PVC tubing with ultasonicallly sealed joints tested (with pressure) and approved, cored holes filled with thermal conducting grout. The key (besides a good seal) is when the installers are finally piping it into the house, the pipes running from the hole must be supported (to prevent kinking) with soil/gravel to ensure a good radius is present when the direction changes from vertical to horizontal. If the installer is not careful then during backfilling, the pipe over time can get a kink and this will prevent good circulation. Also remember that the more bends you have in a system, the harder the pumps need to work. 1 bend is equivalent to 8-9 ft of pipe so the less bends the easier the sytem circulates and the more efficient it is. I investigated many systems and decided on getting the climatemaster Tranquility 27 system. Why? My contractor convinced me that this would be the best system since they are ISO registered (more quality systems in place) , larger manufacturer means more redily avaliable parts, company has been around for a longer period of time, better warranties and most important...history. All this said, even with the best system in world cannot save a poorly installed system. Great system and have not had any problems. I also had the hot water tank installed together with the geothermal and this allow for the excess heat from the geothermal to heat the hot water in the tank. Saves on gas.

Be very careful with duct sizes as was said. My biggest issue is just that, new unit was installed on air source system and ducting was to small, variable blower will not fix this and u may have actually worse flow to second floor.

@Ramon123

I live in Canada, just outside the capital of Ottawa. My heating costs were $3200-$3600 before Geo. They are now down to less than $900/yr with a 2 stage Climatemaster on a pump & dump. Payoff time is 4 yrs with the grants. BTW - you refer to 60-100 cents per watt, I think you mean kilowatt - fairly big difference there, you know.

Response to Ramon123's ridiculous comments

I have had a geothermal for the last 4 years. I have reduced my electric bill by 33% and that just replacing one of my two system. The time for the system to pay for itself is 8-10 years and that's before the 30% tax credit was offered, if i had been able to utulize the tax credit it would only take 6-8 years to pay off. I have a 2 stage, 4 ton Florida Heat Pump utilizing 4 wells. It heats and cools the house just fine and I live in Anne Arundel County, MD just south of Annapolis.

Ramon123 - until you actually get a geothermal system yourself I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself and let those that actually have a geotherm heat pump comment and inform people about them.

And as for solar which I have looked into, the costs are extremely high and the time it takes for solar systems to pay for themselves (with the 30% tax credit) takes 35+ years. The only way for solar to become feasable is when politicians make electricity rates necessarily skyrocket. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4) Unless of course the cost of solar panels continue to drop thanks to cheap labor in China.

Hi Ramon, I do not know where you live but I would sure love to show you my Geothermal by Waterfurnace. I live on the coast of Virginia. When I put in my system it cut my total power bill by 39.5%. It's all on one meter so I don't know for sure but that would mean about a 60% reduction in my heating and cooling cost. It is very quiet. There is no down side to Geothermal as I see it, and now the government will pay 30% of the total price in a tax credit. Now for me I don't think that man can change the temperature of the earth, only God can do that, so I am not saving the world. I didn't get the 30% back as I put it in a year to soon. I feel real good knowing that I am doing what I can to save oil from being imported from people that want to kill us. The energy that I use comes mostly from a very hard working american coal miner in West Virginia. I have been wrong many times in my life and I don't think this was one of them. It is something that I would be glade to do again.

Hi Ramon, I do not know where you live but I would sure love to show you my Geothermal by Waterfurnace. I live on the coast of Virginia. When I put in my system it cut my total power bill by 39.5%. It's all on one meter so I don't know for sure but that would mean about a 60% reduction in my heating and cooling cost. It is very quiet. There is no down side to Geothermal as I see it, and now the government will pay 30% of the total price in a tax credit. Now for me I don't think that man can change the temperature of the earth, only God can do that, so I am not saving the world. I didn't get the 30% back as I put it in a year to soon. I feel real good knowing that I am doing what I can to save oil from being imported from people that want to kill us. The energy that I use comes mostly from a very hard working american coal miner in West Virginia. I have been wrong many times in my life and I don't think this was one of them. It is something that I would be glade to do again.

Thank you for sharing your thought. Your comment make sense.

Originally Posted by ramon123

I have been observing geothermal owner's comments for several years now and it has led me to reject any thoughts of a ground based loop system, mostly due to the apparent uncertainty of results obtained and the exorbitant installation costs. I therefore might consider a lake system geothermal, but haven't heard many good things there
either. So my conclusion is that geothermal systems are simply not predictable enough are are ridiculously non cost-effective when compared to the much simpler alternatives of insulation (new construction) and especially solar panel arrays. With the advent of microinverters, array installation is unbelievably simple and quick and prices of panels
are netting (for the first 6 KW, usually more than enough) between 60 cents and a dollar per watt, with micros about 70 cents per watt. Those prices lead me to completely
reject geothermal and its apparent multitude of headaches and non-performance and excessive costs. I was enthusiastic with the concept of geothermal when it first appeared more than a decade ago, but have been quite disappointed with the
technology. I believe this technology was totally oversold and oversubsidized.

I have been observing geothermal owner's comments for several years now and it has led me to reject any thoughts of a ground based loop system, mostly due to the apparent uncertainty of results obtained and the exorbitant installation costs. I therefore might consider a lake system geothermal, but haven't heard many good things there
either. So my conclusion is that geothermal systems are simply not predictable enough are are ridiculously non cost-effective when compared to the much simpler alternatives of insulation (new construction) and especially solar panel arrays. With the advent of microinverters, array installation is unbelievably simple and quick and prices of panels
are netting (for the first 6 KW, usually more than enough) between 60 cents and a dollar per watt, with micros about 70 cents per watt. Those prices lead me to completely
reject geothermal and its apparent multitude of headaches and non-performance and excessive costs. I was enthusiastic with the concept of geothermal when it first appeared more than a decade ago, but have been quite disappointed with the
technology. I believe this technology was totally oversold and oversubsidized.

reply

Thank you energy_freak!
It is new to me and I asked around, there is no body I know uses geothermal. I wonder what if something goes wrong, what can we do, and what the cost is going to be to fix things....

Originally Posted by energy_freak

I do not think that it makes much of a difference as long as they come from a well know maker. There are several major manufactures and they all operate with the same technology and use the same physical principles.

The most important issue is the loop design and placement. That is where the money are and that is the most important and critical part of the future system.

Originally Posted by violiu

Could you tell me more about what system you have

I do not think that it makes much of a difference as long as they come from a well know maker. There are several major manufactures and they all operate with the same technology and use the same physical principles.

The most important issue is the loop design and placement. That is where the money are and that is the most important and critical part of the future system.

Hi A Maryland Mom, I am new to this and the geothermal, and very interested in getting started, could you, and am in Rockville MD. Could you tell me more about what system you have and whom you hired, and how do you like your new system? Thanks

Experience definitely counts. I never tell a potential customer what size of unit we will be installing until they sign. I don't need people shopping around with my design. As far as humidity, look into Nortec. Filters are a bit tougher depending on your home, pets etc.

If it is a small attic consider having closed cell sprayfoam applied to the underside of the sheathing and sealing the attic. With that done the space is pulled into the building envelope as an indirectly conditioned space. Duct leaks become basically irrelevant and duct thermal losses become minor - the ambient temp in the attic should be no more than 10-20 degrees either side of ambient