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sysint-

Great information and links you got for me. I will put those links in my favorites for later. I have to say you know your stuff.
And you are also right about the college's project manager. In fact you hit the nail right on the head. There is also a team of them. They are responsible for overseeing the construction of four new buildings on our campus as well as other projects. It took four years for them to get started on the parking structure. That was about one month ago. This week another contractor started pushing dirt and knocking down trees for the math and science building. I'm hear that two of the other building will be starting this spring. Then the central plant will be starting soon. This campus will be a mad house. This construction should have been staggered. So yeah they are not impressing me a whole lot.

"open protocol TAC/Invensys Lonmark/Lonworks based, web-based"

If they say Lonmark you can go to Lonmark.org and absolutely hold them to the fire. If so, I'd get it in writing they will follow the Lonmark specification. Rope them into it. Write a separate letter to YOUR two consultants and tell them you absolutely expect them to get themselves thoroughly acquainted with the specification and the protocol.

Further, you need to define what "web based" is. If it is Tridium with Invensys then you may already have a conflict with a Lonmark specification. However, you should be able to receive a full LNS database before installation for your inspection.

As far as I'm concerned requesting the LNS database with the programming data on the programmable controllers in advance would be reasonable. The LNS Lonworks database will show the nodes, their variables and interconnections. You could take a LNS software of your choice and open it up offline and review it. I would highly suggest doing this.

EDIT:


Here is a LNS tool
http://www.echelon.com/support/docum...s/370x0-32.pdf

Here's the other news you will find helpful. IF you are LNS you can not only review the installation offline, but you can access the actual site as it's being built online because you can have more than one client reading off the LNS database. This would be a very good tool to use for you during construction.

EDIT: "Ameresco usually conducts their meetings with an entourage of engineers, so if one stumbles, another is there to fill in the "missing links"." -- Don't let them do that. Ask the guy that stumbles point blank to answer. I don't let that slide myself. I pin the guys down so they end up keeping their mouth shut unless they actually have a clue of what they are talking about. If the guy can't answer the question and another guy pipes in I'd ask him if HE is the guy that's responsible and then direct questions only to him on the control system.

Sounds to me like you don't have a good enough project manager or engineering consultant.

siemens vs lonworks

Guys-

Ameresco usually conducts their meetings with an entourage of engineers, so if one stumbles, another is there to fill in the "missing links". Normally in these meetings is an Ameresco team of engineers, the campus project manager(responsible for our new buildings and the central plant), a consultant (who is also a mechanical engineer who works for the college district), an outside consultant hired by the college to review Ameresco plans( they had a lot of problems with several things), a couple of engineers who are involved in the construction of our new buildings, three of my bosses, and .....me. I also think our project managers(supposed to be looking out for the interest of the college) has been getting treated to a few dinners and perks because they seem to be content with whatever Ameresco proposes.

sysint- the control system they want to install is described in their spec as:
an open protocol TAC/Invensys Lonmark/Lonworks based, web-based, with
a graphical interface. Looking at some of the links you can me, this whole thing looks more like a BACnet/web-based system.

ps- the contract term I believe is for 20 years.

Engineers BS'ing there way through,, hmmmm, glad this does not happen often............. stooooopid engineers.....

Typical engineers BS'ing their way through meetings.

What happened here is that ALC, Trane and TAC have taken them out to lunch and handed them specifications which they promptly combined similar to the way you make soup.... a little ALC, a pinch of Trane and some TAC.

It sure seems to me that AMERESCO engineers either are lying or don't know a thing about what they are talking about.

Start getting things in writing.

My thoughts are similar to Sysint.

What's probably happening is that they are specifying either BACnet (ALC) or Lonworks (TAC/Invensys). They probably used this on some other project somewhere else. Frankly, it doesn't sound like they've picked any specific contractor or product yet.

"Ameresco says they chose ALC TAC/Invensys open protocol because it's being used with great success at one of our sister campuses and going with Siemens will add $160,000 tp the costs."

That statement makes no sense. Do they mean Andover TAC/Invensys? ALC is owned by Carrier and has nothing to do with TAC. Sounds to me like you are getting bacnet with ALC in some OEM equipment and TAC/Invensys in another area. Either the guy is lying to you or doesn't know what he is talking about.

EDIT: You need to write a letter.
Ask: Are we receiving a LNS Lonworks architecture? If not, what architecture is being used? Which manufacturers products are being used and for what?

Of course at the end I'd do a bit of talking about what you were to expect and that you are sure Ameresco will do what they say and not arbitrarily change their minds now that they HAVE the project.

Kool,

Are you sure this is a shared savings ESPC? That method of financing went out of fashion a while ago. What is more prevalent is "stipulated" savings, which means the customer signs off on the savings calculations - which may be conservative or may be aggressive, or Option C - which means the savings has to be shown "on the meter". How long is the contract term - 10, 20, 30 yrs? Reason I ask is the M & V for the project (measurement and verification of savings for the contract term) really determines who is at risk if the savings don't materialize. if the contractor is at risk, they will be more concerned about the "success" of the project.

siemens vs lonworks

navair-
Yeah hopefully that will inspire Ameresco to look out for everyone's best interest . I will for sure be keeping an eye out for who's going to commission all the equipment.


outacontrol-
We have four buildings approved for construction as part of the college master plan. I'm told by our project manager that Siemens has been approved to do the controls for the BAS and fire system for the first building.

How did the four other buildings become a "done deal"?

Originally Posted by koolncali

krac/navair-

Yes all public colleges in California are funded by the state. Our new buildings are being funded by a state proposition passed by voters. <b>Krac</b> right now our 'Termgubinator' is too busy slashing 4 or 5 billion dollars from education to ring his cell phone.
We have a project manager consisting of a team of architects and engineers who are the "overseers" of all 4 new buildings coming to our campus and the central plant. Originally all the new buildings were going to have stand-alone chillers. But when the big energy services companies got wind of it, they went to top brass and pitched energy savings strategies and going "green" and since the brass wanted to look good in their ivory towers, central plants were "born". I am all for saving energy and making ice on "off peak" hours and running pumps only during high demand hours makes "cents" to me. But the way this works with Ameresco financing the project and we the college paying them back with the energy savings, seems to put the college in a vunerable position. I would imagine that Ameresco will have one of their subs commission the "plant". I'm not sure at this point. And I'm not a shot caller but just the HVAC tech who is going to left with all the headaches after the dust is settled, warranties are over, and Ameresco's team of engineers is in Canada or somewhere else doing another "design/build".

Thanks <b>navair </b>for all the good news about cracked chiller shells and ice plants that have never worked . or wait I've got about ten more years before I can retire. At least I can be comforted knowing my control valves will probably work. As far as chiller control, on my existing chillers I normally let Siemens just enable the chiller after proof of fan/pump operation and a call for cooling from the hottest zone.

I'm sorry man, didn't know you were in Cali. Tough and rough situation but hang in there and make sure the "Commissioning Agent" is independent of Ameresco or the installing contractor...conflict of interest and all. But the way these performance contracts work is Ameresco gets to split to amount of saved energy. If your plant is AFU then it wont run efficiently and you will be on undersized chillers all day eating gobs of KW. Ameresco will be eating the interest on their capital invested in the plant. LOL, they will lose their shirts if the ice making and melting does not work well.

siemens vs lonworks

krac/navair-

Yes all public colleges in California are funded by the state. Our new buildings are being funded by a state proposition passed by voters. <b>Krac</b> right now our 'Termgubinator' is too busy slashing 4 or 5 billion dollars from education to ring his cell phone.
We have a project manager consisting of a team of architects and engineers who are the "overseers" of all 4 new buildings coming to our campus and the central plant. Originally all the new buildings were going to have stand-alone chillers. But when the big energy services companies got wind of it, they went to top brass and pitched energy savings strategies and going "green" and since the brass wanted to look good in their ivory towers, central plants were "born". I am all for saving energy and making ice on "off peak" hours and running pumps only during high demand hours makes "cents" to me. But the way this works with Ameresco financing the project and we the college paying them back with the energy savings, seems to put the college in a vunerable position. I would imagine that Ameresco will have one of their subs commission the "plant". I'm not sure at this point. And I'm not a shot caller but just the HVAC tech who is going to left with all the headaches after the dust is settled, warranties are over, and Ameresco's team of engineers is in Canada or somewhere else doing another "design/build".

Thanks <b>navair </b>for all the good news about cracked chiller shells and ice plants that have never worked . or wait I've got about ten more years before I can retire. At least I can be comforted knowing my control valves will probably work. As far as chiller control, on my existing chillers I normally let Siemens just enable the chiller after proof of fan/pump operation and a call for cooling from the hottest zone.

Lon Siemens

Originally Posted by koolncali

sysint-

Well my boss and I had a meeting with Ameresco on Thurs but only one of their more recently hired mechanical engineers showed up and just took notes as we went through the "plans" which we had "red inked" throughout. One of the architects representing project management of the four new buildings planned for our campus(not Ameresco) announced that Siemens was a done deal for the whole campus and Siemens would also be used for all new fire monitoring of new buildings and interface with the original fire system(my boss is not happy about two fire systems but this IS a done deal). The Ameresco rep said he thought we were still getting a TAC/Invensys Lonworks open protocol for the central plant. So things are still up in the air but we should get the chance to review and give final approval to the submittals. Whatever control system we get needs to at least enable the chillers, switch between ice making and ice melting, switch the control valves, monitor temperatures, control the speed drives for all pumps and cooling tower fans, control the cooling towers,boilers,pumps,etc.
They are calling for Belimo control valves(I am not familiar with this manufacturer), ABB speed drives(these are becoming our standard), two 500 ton Trane HCFC 123 glycol centrifugals, Paco pumps. Does anyone know if Calmac TES tanks come with any ice inventory control that come become a point in a control system?

Ameresco says they chose ALC TAC/Invensys open protocol because it's being used with great success at one of our sister campuses and going with Siemens will add $160,000 tp the costs.

Ameresco has been awarded the bid, they are an energy services company, they are financing the whole design/build, they are making it seem like we have some "say so" in this project but like PS said this is mostly a "done deal". This project can not be held up because the central plant will supply a new 4-story building which has already went through DSA(District of State Architect) and ground will be broke soon. We (plant maintenance) have to be careful not be accused by Ameresco of holding up the project. And the battle goes on and on.....

Ahhh, the old performance contract. You are golden (sort of). Ice storage systems, Trane Calmac, are notoriously difficult to control; I know of several in Atlantic City (City Hall and the 10 year old high school) where they have nothing but problems...I don't think the one at city hall has ever worked. Anyway, it is up to Ameresco to make the system work...if it doesn't then they don't save your campus any money, and they don't make any money. If I were you I would look into the contracts to see if there is an independent "Commissioning Agent" who is to commission the system. It is the commissioning agents responsibility to make sure the system works as designed, this includes the controls. I know the Trane system will control the whole shootin match for the ice making duty so you should be okay...but don't let Siemens control it or you will be in for the biggest nightmare you could possibly imagine. Trane knows what they are doing with their system so trust them on that. Also, watch those centrifugal chillers. The low pressure shells used are thinner than those used on R-134 and R-22 chillers and they have been known to crack when used on ice making duty. I'm just loads of good news arent I. But to make you feel better I will say that Belimo makes excellent valves and actuators...they are in the top three.

Good luck and cover your own six on this project. Read the contract and find out who has ownership of what...I think you will find that Ameresco has a ton to loose if this job goes south.

Originally Posted by koolncali

Ameresco says they chose ALC TAC/Invensys open protocol because it's being used with great success at one of our sister campuses and going with Siemens will add $160,000 tp the costs.

Is this project funded by the state? Not sure how CA funded projects work but something doesn't sound right at all. Bad enough you are being forced to use a control company you don't like, never mind paying a huge premium.

I would call the Governators office and let Arnold kick some butt!

Hasta la vista...

siemens vs lonworks

sysint-

Well my boss and I had a meeting with Ameresco on Thurs but only one of their more recently hired mechanical engineers showed up and just took notes as we went through the "plans" which we had "red inked" throughout. One of the architects representing project management of the four new buildings planned for our campus(not Ameresco) announced that Siemens was a done deal for the whole campus and Siemens would also be used for all new fire monitoring of new buildings and interface with the original fire system(my boss is not happy about two fire systems but this IS a done deal). The Ameresco rep said he thought we were still getting a TAC/Invensys Lonworks open protocol for the central plant. So things are still up in the air but we should get the chance to review and give final approval to the submittals. Whatever control system we get needs to at least enable the chillers, switch between ice making and ice melting, switch the control valves, monitor temperatures, control the speed drives for all pumps and cooling tower fans, control the cooling towers,boilers,pumps,etc.
They are calling for Belimo control valves(I am not familiar with this manufacturer), ABB speed drives(these are becoming our standard), two 500 ton Trane HCFC 123 glycol centrifugals, Paco pumps. Does anyone know if Calmac TES tanks come with any ice inventory control that come become a point in a control system?

Ameresco says they chose ALC TAC/Invensys open protocol because it's being used with great success at one of our sister campuses and going with Siemens will add $160,000 tp the costs.

Ameresco has been awarded the bid, they are an energy services company, they are financing the whole design/build, they are making it seem like we have some "say so" in this project but like PS said this is mostly a "done deal". This project can not be held up because the central plant will supply a new 4-story building which has already went through DSA(District of State Architect) and ground will be broke soon. We (plant maintenance) have to be careful not be accused by Ameresco of holding up the project. And the battle goes on and on.....

Lon vs Siemens

Originally Posted by freddy-b

Huh? Explain how a Proprietary Driver (Like Siemens) that is designed to work with TridiumAX for the sole purpose of integrating the older stuff. Or even more so, Lon going to TridiumAX is more Third party like than any other Lon solution?
Whats the logic here?

I am not trying to argue against Tridium because I am not real familiar with Tridium but I understand what it is supposed to do - sort of like a translator between, as you say, the older stuff and the new. But the equipment I buy from various manufacturers has a simple (Lon, BacNet or Modbus) open protocol card which should talk to the open protocol systems of Siemens (Apogee) or JCI (Metasys) etc...isn't the FM buying new equipment with new controls? The Siemens guys are notorious for finger pointing when it comes to control issues - - "It's the chillers control panel software that's the problem, or better yet, its Tridium that is the problem etc.." Why is Siemens using their proprietary stuff, surely the owner didn't ask fot that!

Originally Posted by navair86

I have heard about Tridium and their competitor. I am a bit leary of adding a third control system...its like getting an Arab to translate a conversation between a Russian and a Italian, something always gets lost in the translation.

Huh? Explain how a Proprietary Driver (Like Siemens) that is designed to work with TridiumAX for the sole purpose of integrating the older stuff. Or even more so, Lon going to TridiumAX is more Third party like than any other Lon solution?
Whats the logic here?

I have heard about Tridium and their competitor. I am a bit leary of adding a third control system...its like getting an Arab to translate a conversation between a Russian and a Italian, something always gets lost in the translation.

Here is what Trane says about their LCI-C chiller LON interface:
LonTalk&#174; Communications Interface (LCI-C) The optional LonTalk Communications Interface for Chiller (LCI-C) is available
factory- or field-installed. It is an integrated communication board that enables the chiller controller to
communicate over a LonTalk network. The LCI-C is capable of controlling and monitoring chiller setpoints, operating
modes, alarms and status. The Trane LCI-C provides additional points beyond the standard LonMark&#174;-defined chiller
profile to extend interoperability and support a broader range of system applications. These added points are
referred to as open extensions. The LCI-C is certified to the LonMark Chiller Controller Functional Profile 8040
version 1.0 and follows LonTalk FTT-10A free topology communications.

EDIT: You could look up the available inputs and outputs but it should do what you want. What equipment is tenatively going in this site?
The reason I ask is that with the Trane LON stuff you probably get by OK and utilize a few programmables. However, if they are doing something like sneaking in a SEMCO ERU then you have to slam down your foot and say the ALC controller goes.... OR make it Modbus and then get a Modbus to LON gate so you don't get screwed.

"If I were you, I'd go for the Lonworks (or BacNet or Modbus) so that you can get equipment from any manufacturer (they all come with low cost Lon, Bacnet and Modbus cards) and you will be able to control this equipment. If you stay with the Siemens system you will not get to use all the functionalilty from the chiller control panel and will be limited to what "Siemens can see", which will not be much. Also, becareful with the Siemens techs. They claim to know it all, but I have found they know a lot about Siemens controls and not much else."

This is where a powerful front-end, such as Tridiums AX could serve you in more ways then you could imagine.

http://www.tridium.com/cs/products_/_services/niagaraax