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You're not going to be able to load software onto a JACE-6: it runs a QNX OS, with no UI available (at least it's not documented...) If you went with something like the NXS, it runs Embedded XP (and loading software onto it is fairly easy - just get to the Windows desktop with RemoteDesktop); the softJACE, by definition, runs whatever Windows OS you load (not tested under Vista yet, so I wouldn't do that, but XP no problem). Tridium states the the LON/IP is "LON over IP, using CEA-852, communicates through IP/LON router." Whether that makes the JACE an IP852 device or not is unclear, but if it follows the behavior of their LON-FTT driver, you can easily make the JACE a LON device detectable by others. I don't think the USB port is enabled on the JACE-6, and since getting to the OS is not likely, you'd be better off pursuing this endeavor on a JACE with an OS you can work with - since you've been mentioning the softJACE all along, that's probably the direction you should be heading.
No. I'm looking if the JACE accepts an IP852 channel for network interface. Further I'm asking to be able to utlize the IP852 NIC from Loytec on it's USB port in the case of the JACE-6. If so you may be able to implement IP852 regardless of the Tridium license if you don't need the Echelon based CS and you can load the NIC software on the JACE. What OS is on the software JACE and the JACE-6? I guess lastly I'm asking if you can setup an IP852 channel within the JACE with a license or make the JACE an IP852 device.
I don't think the AX Lon IP driver allows you to do Lon Routing, if that is what is being asked.
Email in. The receptionist apparently flagged me and said he has no mobile and no vmail... must be really nice for him...
just tell him you talked to me and I said I didnt hear anything from him From Codewriter sysint, would ya like me to get you in touch with him?? email me if so... Chris
Originally Posted by sysint Chris-- I tried to call that codewriting bum to set a visit.... no response yet. Anyway, I've got nothing, but rather than get the kool-aid I post here. I'll touch base with you and when I stop and see you guys no soup for Codewriter! If your coming to PA to see me, I wont be here !! I will be there, But,,, I would like a lunch Code is just swamped right now, My contact info here will soon be changing, maybe after that we can get something worked out??? I'll IM him now,,, I think its funny
Originally Posted by digo A JACE2/6 already has 2 ethernet ports both of which can be used for IP852. The lonip option must be licensed. I do not think you'd use the USB port as a host for an additional interface. At this time the port is unused....I don't see why not. Loytec offers the IP852 USB NIC. That way any protocol analyzation can run through that registration instead of licensing the software on a specific machine where it's stuck. That's why I ask about the USB NIC. Further, why do you need to license LON/IP? I'm wondering if you can't simply use the IP852 NIC and Loytec servers. You would use the Loytec CS built-into the router. I wonder if the JACE would not be able to distinguish this between a regular FT-10 interface... Hmmm. Maybe a loophole?
Chris-- I tried to call that codewriting bum to set a visit.... no response yet. Anyway, I've got nothing, but rather than get the kool-aid I post here. I'll touch base with you and when I stop and see you guys no soup for Codewriter!
sysint, Sorry I don't have that much time right now to join into this conversation, relocating back to MD to work with codewriter again..... Busy working here and there, packing, moving, etc... Trying to make sure all is behaving on here from time to time But,,, do you have the docs on the Trid stuff??? A lot of the stuff you are asking about can be found in there. Chris
Yep. Sounds like a nice application because you get the analyzation capability, the huge throughput of IP852, and it's no big deal to use IP852 or bacnet/IP displays or even bacnet or LON routers. I have to research this further no doubt. EDIT: Dave and Digo -- if you don't mind I think it's email time if OK. Ninax, I still like you but consider taking your foot off the throttle once... When I stop to see you I'll buy lunch...
Originally Posted by sysint So, if I wanted to do some serious LON networking I could implement a soft JACE on some high-powered machine and utilize IP852 routing? Since a softJACE can't be licensed for fieldbus drivers, including LON FTT-10, this actually sounds like a great way to get LON into a softJACE (assuming, of course, that the softJACE can be licensed for such, as it can for other IP-interfaced drivers, like MODbus TCP and BACnet/IP). Tridium does not provide IP/LON routers themselves, so this sounds like the spot where Loytec would complement the Tridium architecture. That doesn't seem so threatening...
Originally Posted by sysint OK. That's far more than previously mentioned. So, you can use a FT-10 router or switch downstream. You actually mean 126 devices. Your JACE is number 127 always, right? The node id is set to 127 by default, but I believe 64+64-1(JACE)-2(router) = 125 total. So I guess the limit would be 63 devices on a segment without the jace, and 62 devices on the segment where the JACE resides. The remaining 2 would be used up by the router. Originally Posted by sysint Anyway, the question is back to can you take this USB port on the JACE-6, implement IP852 routing and utlize IP routers for full protocol analyzation? Sounds like maybe yes. A JACE2/6 already has 2 ethernet ports both of which can be used for IP852. The lonip option must be licensed. I do not think you'd use the USB port as a host for an additional interface. At this time the port is unused. Originally Posted by sysint So, if I wanted to do some serious LON networking I could implement a soft JACE on some high-powered machine and utilize IP852 routing? I don't see why not.
Thanks. I guess this customer I'm dealing with wants the ability for full analyzation in this instance. I have no idea if this is a specific job requirement or not. But apparently they are unable to do so with their infrastructure which I would think is no different than your own. I think in multiple buildings like this Tridium does fairly good. The alternative is routing, but what is the cost difference? Maybe not worth it. EDIT-- This is my opinion, but I'm not pushing product to Tridium guys just because. If it doesn't make sense why do it? Which is what I basically asked this contractor because they were really looking for full analyzation. I was asking why they didn't but protocol analyzation software for their FT-10 NIC's and call it a day... but apparently there is some issue with this.
Originally Posted by sysint Additionally, when you look at IP852 from my perspective, I would want to be able to analyze the networks remotely, and you cannot do that stringing JACE boxes together. We have a school district comprised of 16 schools (3 JACE 403s - done last year, and 13 JACE6s finished this summer). I can remotely analyze the network traffic on any of these sites. Supervisor PC sits at district office with fox tunneling enabled. I can get in to every site from a single IP address. The built-in Lon Utilities Manager may not be a full blown analyzer, but just by looking at crc errors for each device, it's easy to spot where the trouble is. Each JACE has an average of 50 ASCs (some JACE6 with 2 lon cards, 100+ devices).
Originally Posted by digo The JACE-6 does have one USB port - uses yet to be determined. as far as node count - the JACE6 can have up to 2 LON interfaces, which should yield a maximum of 127 nodes per interface (with an ft-10 router) So, the answer is 254 nodes out of one JACE6 box (max heap recommended). OK. That's far more than previously mentioned. So, you can use a FT-10 router or switch downstream. You actually mean 126 devices. Your JACE is number 127 always, right? Anyway, the question is back to can you take this USB port on the JACE-6, implement IP852 routing and utlize IP routers for full protocol analyzation? Sounds like maybe yes. So, if I wanted to do some serious LON networking I could implement a soft JACE on some high-powered machine and utilize IP852 routing?
NINAX -If that is the case why am I asking questions? I got a customer asking what we got to help him out and I'm investigating. Anyway, when it comes down to it, Loytec has bacnet and LON routing, display and server products with full AST functionality and graphical display capability. They also will very soon take care of a couple more popular protocols. They also can have full protocol analyzation of the LON trunk. "Don't be so sure of the LON device count that you tossed out earlier either." I'm only going off what I was told and what was posted here. "You need it because you're operating in a much more restrictive 'box' environment." How do you figure that? The only thing LON side Tridium does that Loytec doesn't is encase a network commissioning/creation tool. Right? My only concern with Tridium is the additional "framework". Alot of the industry has been using OPC and it works just fine. So, why would you put the additional framework? I think because in smaller networks you can have multiple protocols dumping into a single box. Tridium is great at that and I give them credit for it. They do a nice job with it.
Originally Posted by sysint There's no USB port on a JACE so for IP852 does it utilize the Echelon config server or does it have it's own implementation? Anyway, how many ASC LON controllers can you dump into the JACE 6? The JACE-6 does have one USB port - uses yet to be determined. as far as node count - the JACE6 can have up to 2 LON interfaces, which should yield a maximum of 127 nodes per interface (with an ft-10 router) So, the answer is 254 nodes out of one JACE6 box (max heap recommended).
Originally Posted by sysint OK Ninax-- Let's start here: Quote: Additionally, when you look at IP852 from my perspective, I would want to be able to analyze the networks remotely, and you cannot do that stringing JACE boxes together. You state: "Uniformed Loytec BS." I have one of the largest Tridium contractors in the country that is also an authorized training facility that asked about the ability for full protocol analyzation ability and how to accomplish this. So, I guess that's Tridium contractor BS to you? For a fact with Loytec products I can analyze any number of networks from my office top to bottom utilizing IP852 because Loytec can analyze FT-10 traffic on the backside of their equipment. Tell me how you completely analyze LON packets through multiple JACE boxes if you are such a smart guy. I'd love to hear it because this contractor I have alot of respect for is indicating they can't do it. Further, Loytec also has Redundant routing capability. So, you can have a 100% redundant FT-10 network with 100% redundant routing/redirection and get network statistical data. How do you do that with Tridium JACE boxes? You're the smartest guy sysint. You're here telling everyone about the advantages and disadvantages of the products you're familiar with, and try to imply the same expertise to the Tridium product which you are WAY behind the curve on. You're trying to do the old smoke and mirror trick. You're trying to mis-lead everyone about the importance of any one item. Who gives a sh!t about you LON IP? Besides you. You need it, I don't. You need it because you're operating in a much more restrictive 'box' environment. Trid boxes operate outside of your 'box', way outside. Don't be so sure of the LON device count that you tossed out earlier either. You know it, and you hate it. That's why you try to trash AX so much. It must be hurting Loytec's bottom line, or you've been tasked with growth and this is your strategy.
OK Ninax-- Let's start here: Quote: Additionally, when you look at IP852 from my perspective, I would want to be able to analyze the networks remotely, and you cannot do that stringing JACE boxes together. You state: "Uniformed Loytec BS." I have one of the largest Tridium contractors in the country that is also an authorized training facility that asked about the ability for full protocol analyzation ability and how to accomplish this. So, I guess that's Tridium contractor BS to you? For a fact with Loytec products I can analyze any number of networks from my office top to bottom utilizing IP852 because Loytec can analyze FT-10 traffic on the backside of their equipment. Tell me how you completely analyze LON packets through multiple JACE boxes if you are such a smart guy. I'd love to hear it because this contractor I have alot of respect for is indicating they can't do it. Further, Loytec also has Redundant routing capability. So, you can have a 100% redundant FT-10 network with 100% redundant routing/redirection and get network statistical data. How do you do that with Tridium JACE boxes?
Originally Posted by sysint I'm not questioning the success with Tridium... or being successful. Loytec BS. I'm questioning how an integrator can be more successful and maybe spend less money being successful. Uniformed Loytec BS. Additionally, when you look at IP852 from my perspective, I would want to be able to analyze the networks remotely, and you cannot do that stringing JACE boxes together. Uniformed Loytec BS. It's a problem with that infrastructure. I'm looking for a solution for customers in regards to this. Uniformed Loytec BS. Which is why I position Tridium the way I do. I think if you review my posts on this I'm trying to see where and how Tridium is most scalable with LON, and whether we have product to enhance the service and scalability of the product. Loytec BS & envy. But to say they have optimum design for large networks may be premature. I would say they are very good. Most networks in the US are not large. Uniformed Loytec BS & envy.
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