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Efficiency is not the issue

Why are you hung up on efficiency. As long as the gas generator is in the house, and your goal is to try to heat the house, this is exactly as efficient as using an electric heat strip. All the energy in the electricity used is consumed either in breaking the water into hydrogen and oxygen, or is turned into heat. None of the energy is lost (conservation of matter and energy). The energy consumed in breaking the water is released when it is burned. As long as it is all done in the house, all the energy from the electricity consumed is still in the house and all ends up as heat when the reaction is all done. The only thing that would prevent that is if the HHO didn't completely burn and you let the hydrogen float away.

But you get a cool fireplace that doesn't need a vent, and you get a free humidifier effect in the process.

Originally Posted by mark beiser

I have actually looked into HHO quite a bit, and am interested to see where people go with it. The problem is that is suffers from the same problem hydrogen fuel does. It takes more energy to produce the fuel than you get from using the fuel.
Until that problem is overcome, its usefulness will be limited



You are getting fewer BTUH of heat from burning that 20 liters of HHO gas than you would by running a heating element with the same amount of electricity it is taking you to crack the water into HHO gas.

Please don't mistake my comments as being negative about the technology. I personally find it to be very cool. I'm sure your project has been both entertaining and educational. You just have to understand that it is not an efficient way to heat, it certainly is more interesting than a heating element, and a great conversation piece though.



Ok, the thing you have to understand is that the water is not the fuel, the HHO gas is the fuel. To crack the water into HHO gas, a large amount of electricity is required.
Check out what I have circled on this add from Heat&Glo's site.


Note that you need a 60A 220v electrical circuit to run this 31k btuh fireplace. Thats the same sized electrical circuit that would normally be used for a 10 kw electric heat package, and the 10 kw heat package would give you more heat.
I personally think that fireplace is a neat product, but please don't mistake it for an efficient source of heat.



If you are going to post a link to the site, at least read the site.

http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/myth/homuse.html

The simple fact is that at this point in time, you cannot get more energy out of it, or even the same amount of energy, as you put in.
Currently you get less energy out of it than you put in 100% of the time.

The great thing is that there are very many people in many different fields doing tons of work and research on solving that problem.
If and when they do solve it, I'll be right there in line to buy a HHO or hydrogen powered car, furnace, whatever.

Just so everyone knows HG launched the Aqueon as a novelty with a list price of about $50K. They only made about 3 or 4 and the last one sold for close to $70K. One was installed on a yacht belonging to a former HHT exec. Not practical at all. The flame is tiny and hard to see unless its dark because it is technically not a luminous flame. The hearth industry is built around a yellow tipped luminous flame because you want to see a 'natural' flame unlike the heating industry that is after combustion efficiency. Yes, this technology uses a lot of power and is Not cost effective.

Originally Posted by Chris_Worthington

Relocated the 5 year old thread to the "Fireplace" section of the site.

thanks

Relocated the 5 year old thread to the "Fireplace" section of the site.

Originally Posted by danielthechskid

Holy 5 year old thread, Batman.

What the OP has is not a water fueled heater, or an HHO powered heater, it is a Rube Goldberg inspired electric space heater, and assuming the whole contraption is located in the conditioned space it provides exactly what any other electric resistance heater provides, 3.41 BTUs for each watthour consumed. Actually, it probably provides less due to the unwanted chemical reactions in the electrolyzer, imperfect combustion of the hydrogen, and plain system leaks.

This guy should sell an "Infrared" electric cube heater or a fake "Amish" electric fireplace instead, at least then he would make some coin while scamming the public out of their money for yet another space heater.

I laugh then cry every time someone mentions HHO or any of the other various gas-saver/over-unity devices, like a video I saw of a huge trunk sized electrolyzer using 1500 watts that only managed to make a lawnmower engine idle, that same 2HP worth of electricity could likely have powered an electric motor that would have spun that mower engine to destruction.

Yeah, it makes me want to /facepalm every time someone starts in on a discussion of stuff like this.

I gave up following the over unity and zero point energy chuckleheads.
When one of them comes up with an actual device that is available for public scrutiny, I'll pay attention again.

And by public scrutiny, I don't mean "donate" thousands of dollars and get rewarded with an in person demonstration where you are not allowed to touch it or inspect it closely like one scam "charity" outfit does.

Holy 5 year old thread, Batman.

What the OP has is not a water fueled heater, or an HHO powered heater, it is a Rube Goldberg inspired electric space heater, and assuming the whole contraption is located in the conditioned space it provides exactly what any other electric resistance heater provides, 3.41 BTUs for each watthour consumed. Actually, it probably provides less due to the unwanted chemical reactions in the electrolyzer, imperfect combustion of the hydrogen, and plain system leaks.

This guy should sell an "Infrared" electric cube heater or a fake "Amish" electric fireplace instead, at least then he would make some coin while scamming the public out of their money for yet another space heater.

I laugh then cry every time someone mentions HHO or any of the other various gas-saver/over-unity devices, like a video I saw of a huge trunk sized electrolyzer using 1500 watts that only managed to make a lawnmower engine idle, that same 2HP worth of electricity could likely have powered an electric motor that would have spun that mower engine to destruction.

furnace pro, heating in the wrong place?

I have constructed a few HHO generators, and they produce quite a bit of HHO (im attempting to apply it to my truck), however they also are producing quite a bit of heat. Have you run into any overheating issues in the generator? Im using 2'' PVC with a 1 and 3/4 ss tube with a 1 1/2 ss tube inside seperated by pvc rings. The generator is running 12v at about 20-30 amps. The water is steady at about 100df, but the terminals and about 2 inches of the power wire are reaching temps around 300deg f!! i dont want to melt the pvc! have you had any issues similar to this?

Question

Originally Posted by mark beiser

I have actually looked into HHO quite a bit, and am interested to see where people go with it. The problem is that is suffers from the same problem hydrogen fuel does. It takes more energy to produce the fuel than you get from using the fuel.
Until that problem is overcome, its usefulness will be limited



You are getting fewer BTUH of heat from burning that 20 liters of HHO gas than you would by running a heating element with the same amount of electricity it is taking you to crack the water into HHO gas.

Please don't mistake my comments as being negative about the technology. I personally find it to be very cool. I'm sure your project has been both entertaining and educational. You just have to understand that it is not an efficient way to heat, it certainly is more interesting than a heating element, and a great conversation piece though.



Ok, the thing you have to understand is that the water is not the fuel, the HHO gas is the fuel. To crack the water into HHO gas, a large amount of electricity is required.
Check out what I have circled on this add from Heat&Glo's site.


Note that you need a 60A 220v electrical circuit to run this 31k btuh fireplace. Thats the same sized electrical circuit that would normally be used for a 10 kw electric heat package, and the 10 kw heat package would give you more heat.
I personally think that fireplace is a neat product, but please don't mistake it for an efficient source of heat.



If you are going to post a link to the site, at least read the site.

http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/myth/homuse.html

The simple fact is that at this point in time, you cannot get more energy out of it, or even the same amount of energy, as you put in.
Currently you get less energy out of it than you put in 100% of the time.

The great thing is that there are very many people in many different fields doing tons of work and research on solving that problem.
If and when they do solve it, I'll be right there in line to buy a HHO or hydrogen powered car, furnace, whatever.

Are you looking at the full picture when it comes to hho heating the generator itself makes about as much heat as an electric heater and the heat form the gas is more heat created. Most people that look at the energy in and out don't consider the btu made form the generation of the Hydrogen oxygen gas. Thanks. I am not sure if this makes it a more efficient heater or not mine puts out around 108 when producing gas then when you burn the gas you get more. Only a question just wondering if this is in you recession of heat produced.

Originally Posted by Carnak

I am about to patent the perpetual lamp. I got a flashlight aimed at some photovoltaics and the photovoltaics power the flashlight

I tried that when I was a kid, I was so disappointed when it didn't work.

I can jumpstart my e250 with my cordless drill battery, 18v dewalt

Originally Posted by mark beiser

It takes more energy to crack the water into HHO gas than you get from burning the gas.
Its cool and all, but not very efficient.

As for the "water powered" HHO burning cars. Its funny how they never show the massive load of batteries stuffed into the car, or talk about how long it takes or how much energy is used to charge the batteries.

I am about to patent the perpetual lamp. I got a flashlight aimed at some photovoltaics and the photovoltaics power the flashlight

those results don't look that good, I'm already getting that with paint thinner.

Originally Posted by jay302

The electrolysis process gets the energy from the car battery and alternator, utilizing power that's already available.

Bit of a misconception there, increasing the electrical load on the alternator increases the mechanical load on the engine, so no free lunch there.

HHO injection is interesting, but I'd like to see more actual science, objective testing, and info on the long term effects on the engines.

And lets never forget that people enthusiastically reported some relatively rediculous fuel saving numbers from placing special magnets on their fuel lines. Some persisted even after all objective testing showed the magnets to do nothing...

Check this out: http://www.hydro4000.com/
I've been following a thread on another forum, a few of the guys there have installed this system with pretty impressive results. Granted, the hydro400 doesn't completely replace asoline, but is used in addition to regular fuel to get increased mileage. The electrolysis process gets the energy from the car battery and alternator, utilizing power that's already available.

Originally Posted by u8at711

my Idea for suplamental heating in my own home. or remote area.

find a liquid cooled engine.
run the engine off HHO. the engine will power a generator head. this will keep the battery charged for the hho generator.
the heat from the engine will supply some heat for the shanty.
the timing will need to be adjust because of the different properties of the fuel.

Cute idea, but since it will take more energy to generate the HHO than you will get out of it as fuel for the engine, the battery will be drained faster than it can be charged.

Even if 100% of the energy from combustion was somehow converted to mechanical energy to drive the generator, and 100% of the energy driving the generator was converted to electrical energy to charge the battery, and 100% of the energy from the battery resulted in HHO production, the battery would still be drained.


As for the HHO powered cars, they are kinda cool, and I'm sure they are fun projects, but the reality is that it would be more efficient to ditch the HHO generator and the combustion engine, and use the batteries to run an electric motor to power the car.

found out with my reserch,

a 5 litre per min generator can run a 250cc engine to power a vehicle up to 60 mph.

my Idea for suplamental heating in my own home. or remote area.

find a liquid cooled engine.
run the engine off HHO. the engine will power a generator head. this will keep the battery charged for the hho generator.
the heat from the engine will supply some heat for the shanty.
the timing will need to be adjust because of the different properties of the fuel.

I just need to find a small engine this on the test bench.
looking for a 4 stroke 50cc or 100cc test engine

I built a smack booster, (generator) puts out 1.7 litre per min,
using a PWM to control curent heat and gas production.

the patent is why the cars we drive get horrible gas milage.

and the oil companys have us by the cashews.

I have been experamenting with this for a few months now also.
all my vehicles are getting over 100 more miles per tank fill, and there is no HHO being used (yet).

What's the point of your post?

So, let me get this straight: you are a mad scientist experimenting on experimental fuel technology bragging to everyone in the world you modified a listed appliance then go into great detail on an HVAC chat forum discussing R&D level topics that normally would be kept tightly guarded behind closed doors. Discussion of such information outside even the inner sanctum of an R&D dept. such as Heat&Glo's would constitute industrial espionage if you were working for a mfr. As a solo act, you are ruining any chance of gaining a patent for your invention now that you have blabbed here on the net.
What was the purpose of your post here? To impress us with your knowledge and brilliance?

For the record, the HG Aqueon worked all three days at EXPO. The reason it was discontinued was simple supply and demand. The sale price started at $50K and hit $70K by the time the third and last one was sold.

Hearthman

Well guys if you want to find ways to improve your HHO production goto the YAHOO groups and look for the following groups "watercar" "hydroxy" and "workingwatercar" somebody over in one of the groups has the same idea as you do but if you mention that you have done this project just be ready to prove it because over in these groups a picture is worth it weight in gold or better yet black gold and one sure way to be accepted into the groups is during signup mention about converting a stove to run on HHO. Most of the senior guys are helpful in solving problems, who knows you might find ways to increase you production. Also what valves did you use for your conversion I am thinking of doing the same thing.

congratulations

Wow, congralutations.

As distributor in the chimneyfree segment I am very interested.

Get your patent soon and please contact me.

Maybe I can help you with getting it produced or in any way I want to sell in Europe.

Succes and keep me posted.