The Ten Commandments

[chillbilly]

Straight from the bible, we have the gift of the ten commandments.
Is there anyone who can point out anything amoral or unethical about these commandments?

[coolwhip]

Im not a Christian but I still think the 10 commandments are way cool and Moses was far out!

How about Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife. Man...I got some really hot wives that live around me.;)

[Edited by coolwhip on 03-11-2006 at 10:05 AM]

[RoBoTeq]

There are actually two biblical versions of the Ten Commandments, but the basic ethical ideals for a better life for mortals is covered in this text.

The premise of The Ten Commandments was not new at the given timing that is attributed to Biblical writings. There are many similar ethical standards from most regions of the world. To me, this is more proof that God has been communicating with mankind all over the world for quite a long time. The problem seems to be that mankind was just not understanding.

It also appears to me that God's final Word for us as mere mortals was His giving us Jesus Christ to guide us to not only better living as mortals but to guide us to our future spiritual place in our being.

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by chillbilly
Straight from the bible, we have the gift of the ten commandments.
Is there anyone who can point out anything amoral or unethical about these commandments?


The premise that underlies the entire thing is immoral.
A "moral commandment" is a contradiction. There can only be right and wrong where there exist no threat or coercion. Morality ends where a gun begins. When a bank is robbed we don't hold the bank teller accountable for putting the money in the bag because the threat of force was at play. However if no force was at play and she freely put the money in the bag because he asked nicely, well then we could make a moral judgement on her and hold her accountable.

In the former case the bank teller did not use her freewil to make a value judgement because the value judgement was made by another and was FORCED upon her. In the latter she did use her freewill to make a value judgement and she valued theft and the degradation of property that others labor for.

http://freedomkeys.com/ar-whodecides.htm

[kim]

What are you talking about?

Laws are immoral or enforcing laws with a gun are immoral?

[Senior Tech]

The Ten Commandments
I
Thou shalt have no other gods before Me

II
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

III
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain

IV
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy

V
Honour thy father and thy mother

VI
Thou shalt not murder

VII
Thou shalt not commit adultery

VIII
Thou shalt not steal

IX
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour

X
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's

[RoBoTeq]

You know a poster must have whacked out thinking when the likes of both Kim and I don't understand what they are stating.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by braces4impact

Originally posted by chillbilly
Straight from the bible, we have the gift of the ten commandments.
Is there anyone who can point out anything amoral or unethical about these commandments?


The premise that underlies the entire thing is immoral.
A "moral commandment" is a contradiction. There can only be right and wrong where there exist no threat or coercion. Morality ends where a gun begins. When a bank is robbed we don't hold the bank teller accountable for putting the money in the bag because the threat of force was at play. However if no force was at play and she freely put the money in the bag because he asked nicely, well then we could make a moral judgement on her and hold her accountable.

In the former case the bank teller did not use her freewil to make a value judgement because the value judgement was made by another and was FORCED upon her. In the latter she did use her freewill to make a value judgement and she valued theft and the degradation of property that others labor for.

http://freedomkeys.com/ar-whodecides.htm

Methinks you may be from another planet. You seem to want to argue with yourself.

But please, continue. It's entertaining.

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by kim
What are you talking about?

Laws are immoral or enforcing laws with a gun are immoral?


If we don't hold the bank teller morally liable for putting the money in the bag because she was forced to, then on the flip side of the coin could we praise her for doing something that might be considered good if she was forced to do it?

"I command you to put the money in the bag" is no different than "I command you to honor me".

What if some stranger came to you on the street and commanded you to love them? What if they put a gun to your head and commanded you to love them? Does it make a difference that they have a gun to your head or not? Of coarse not. You may fake or give the illusion that you love them to stay alive till the police get there, but you really do not value that person in the way they want you to.


Ethics is about values. Values must be chosen free from threat of force or harm.

Christians believe that if you fail to honor the ten commandments then you are to be doomed to punishment. The fact that a literal gun is not used is besides the point. When the threat of force is in play morality is out of the picture. A "moral commandment" is a contradiction.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by braces4impact
Christians believe that if you fail to honor the ten commandments then you are to be doomed to punishment. The fact that a literal gun is not used is besides the point. When the threat of force is in play morality is out of the picture. A "moral commandment" is a contradiction.[/B]

Nope. No we don't. Your smoke blowin' lacks facts, jack. Obedience is a result of salvation, not a cause.

Wild, huh?

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by braces4impact
Christians believe that if you fail to honor the ten commandments then you are to be doomed to punishment. The fact that a literal gun is not used is besides the point. When the threat of force is in play morality is out of the picture. A "moral commandment" is a contradiction.

Nope. No we don't. Your smoke blowin' lacks facts, jack. Obedience is a result of salvation, not a cause.

Wild, huh? [/B]

What does it mean to honor god?
Are you not honoring that god by accepting the gift of his "begotten son"? Can you honor the god without accepting that "gift"? What if I say to you . "I honor this god but I reject his "gift". Is that not a slap in the face to this god? Ergo by not accepting salvation I am not honoring this god. So you are putting the cart before the horse. Necessarily you must be afraid of not being salvaged from eternal punishment. According to fundamentalist whack jobs the unsaved are punished with eternal torment. To be saved from eternal damnation is the entire concept of "salvation". If you make a decision to be "saved" you are doing it in the face of threat, punishment, and harm (thats the damnation part).
The emotion of fear is being used to coerce your decision and value judgement the same as the bank robber with a gun is using fear to coerce a value judgement by the bank teller.

[Edited by braces4impact on 03-11-2006 at 05:28 PM]

[sline-dawg]

Said to his Son ; I'm sending you to that little blue planet I made in 7 days.Your job is to tell them how great and kind I am.If they will live the way I want, I wil let them live in the Kingdom forever... (except that Eve).



Oh, son, sorry but they are going to nail you to a cross and stab you in the heart to kill your "earthly" body. No big deal for us imortal types.....You'll be sitting here at my right side in just a bit..... Have fun on earth.



DAD

[bootlen]

Originally posted by braces4impact


What does it mean to honor god?
Are you not honoring that god by accepting the gift of his "begotten son"?

To that, I would say yes.

Can you honor the god without accepting that "gift"?

To that, I would say yes.

What if I say to you . "I honor this god but I reject his "gift". Is that not a slap in the face to this god?

Yes, I would say so.

Ergo by not accepting salvation I am not honoring this god.

To that I would say you are wrong. Do you think He needs YOUR acceptance to be honored? Don't kid yerself.

So you are putting the cart before the horse. Necessarily you must be afraid of not being salvaged from eternal punishment.

Not necessarily. There are indeed a few of those who have been "scared into Heaven". I am not one of them. There are far more who have received that gift because we realize the incredible sacrifice that was made on our behalf. It is a heavy appreciation for that sacrifice that moves us to receive.

According to fundamentalist whack jobs the unsaved are punished with eternal torment. To be saved from eternal damnation is the entire concept of "salvation". If you make a decision to be "saved" you are doing it in the face of threat, punishment, and harm (thats the damnation part).
The emotion of fear is being used to coerce your decision and value judgement the same as the bank robber with a gun is using fear to coerce a value judgement by the bank teller.

Ya see, it's not God that condemns us but we ourselves.

Suppose you are driving 75 in a 55 and the cop pulls you over. You go before the judge and he hands down the fine. Now do you blame the judge or do you blame yourself for the imposed fine? Fact is, the law is in place and everybody is aware of it. You read the drivers' handbook to learn about the laws and there are posted signs. You have no recourse but to agree with the judge as to your guilt. You have judged yourself because of the law and your violation of it.

In the case of salvation, there is a way out of paying the "fine". Why do you have something against that grace. What is it about it that turns you away? I already know the answer but do you?

[RoBoTeq]

I am not certain if braces is just some snotnosed kid that really does not understand that terminology is much differently used throughout the history of mankind or if he/she just likes to use any method whatsoever to confuse any hints of learning.

The term "commandment" in the Bible, specifically where it refers to the commandments of God, is a translation of the Hebrew word "peh" which is literally translated into "the mouth" as in "blowing from the mouth".

A more accurate translation of the term "commandment" when referring to the Ten Commandments is that these are the utterences of God....the things that God stated.

Even though the movies makes it appear that the Ten Commandments are Gods wind blowing absolutes or else statements, the Bible does not really translate literally to that type of attitude.

As with everything else God communicates with us, the Ten Commandments are Gods teachings for how we can live better lives. If we follow Gods utterences of ten rules to live by, we will simply have better lives.

Does anyone disagree that by following these ten rules we will live better lives?

[chillbilly]

Obviously there are more than a few people who would remove the ten commandments from the face of the earth if they could.
It is force of that spiteful hate that God will snuff out.

These times are famine for the soul but for the senses it's a feast.

[braces4impact]

Not necessarily. There are indeed a few of those who have been "scared into Heaven". I am not one of them. There are far more who have received that gift because we realize the incredible sacrifice that was made on our behalf. It is a heavy appreciation for that sacrifice that moves us to receive.

Thanks for making my point !

You FIRST have to believe that you NEED to be salvaged ( that's the fear part) in order to think that it was, as you say, an "incredible sacrifice".


Suppose you are driving 75 in a 55 and the cop pulls you over. You go before the judge and he hands down the fine. Now do you blame the judge or do you blame yourself for the imposed fine? Fact is, the law is in place and everybody is aware of it. You read the drivers' handbook to learn about the laws and there are posted signs. You have no recourse but to agree with the judge as to your guilt. You have judged yourself because of the law and your violation of it. In the case of salvation, there is a way out of paying the "fine". Why do you have something against that grace. What is it about it that turns you away? I already know the answer but do you?

The difference here is that the law was made by us through our representatives. No one disagrees that this law even exist. As school children we take field trips downtown and we see the laws made and we see them enforced. Did we see the bible law when it was made and do we see it enforced? No we have claims that it was made by some type of authority and we have claims that it is enforced by this alleged authority. Some archaic A holes who we can't even interview claim that this is true and since there is no evidence you have to take it all on faith that it is for real. But why on earth take it on faith that it's real UNLESS you are coerced ( brainwashed indoctrinated or whatever) into thinking that unless you accept it you will SUFFER FOREVER! Fear , threat and punishment is the philosophical underpinnings of you fairy tale beliefs. Not rationality , logic and non superstition.





Originally posted by RoBoTeq
I am not certain if braces is just some snotnosed kid that really does not understand that terminology is much differently used throughout the history of mankind or if he/she just likes to use any method whatsoever to confuse any hints of learning.

The term "commandment" in the Bible, specifically where it refers to the commandments of God, is a translation of the Hebrew word "peh" which is literally translated into "the mouth" as in "blowing from the mouth".

A more accurate translation of the term "commandment" when referring to the Ten Commandments is that these are the utterences of God....the things that God stated.

Even though the movies makes it appear that the Ten Commandments are Gods wind blowing absolutes or else statements, the Bible does not really translate literally to that type of attitude.

As with everything else God communicates with us, the Ten Commandments are Gods teachings for how we can live better lives. If we follow Gods utterences of ten rules to live by, we will simply have better lives.



Oh so these were merely the Ten Suggestions? LOL!

If what you are saying is true, Robo. Then there cannot be a consequence for say, not honoring the sabbath. There cannot be the "else" part of the "absolutes or else" statement you made.


Does anyone disagree that by following these ten rules we will live better lives?

Well I dunno let's see. In the tenth commandment are the words "covet" and "neighbor" the same as we use them today?

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's

[bootlen]

I noticed, braces, you didn't answer my question. All you did was make statements, most of which are moot, about my posts.

[chillbilly]

Does anyone disagree that by following these ten rules we will live better lives?

Well I dunno let's see. In the tenth commandment are the words "covet" and "neighbor" the same as we use them today?




The meaning of the commandment transcends time, you bonehead. Don't look to a difference in the age to weasel out of being morally responsible. You know what it means.
You psycho-babble to deflect any moral accountability, but that tactic is lame and will not help you.
God has given you what you need to be morally sound.
What you do with what he imparts is your choice.

Man, I'll bet your kids are some depressed and confused individuals. Do you spout the same babble their way while you speak at them and not to them?
Sheesh.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by chillbilly
Does anyone disagree that by following these ten rules we will live better lives?

Well I dunno let's see. In the tenth commandment are the words "covet" and "neighbor" the same as we use them today?




The meaning of the commandment transcends time, you bonehead. Don't look to a difference in the age to weasel out of being morally responsible. You know what it means.
You psycho-babble to deflect any moral accountability, but that tactic is lame and will not help you.
God has given you what you need to be morally sound.
What you do with what he imparts is your choice.

Man, I'll bet your kids are some depressed and confused individuals. Do you spout the same babble their way while you speak at them and not to them?
Sheesh.


The guys a homosexual, chilly. No kids. I wonder about his parents, though.

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by chillbilly
Does anyone disagree that by following these ten rules we will live better lives?

Well I dunno let's see. In the tenth commandment are the words "covet" and "neighbor" the same as we use them today?




The meaning of the commandment transcends time, you bonehead. Don't look to a difference in the age to weasel out of being morally responsible. You know what it means.
You psycho-babble to deflect any moral accountability, but that tactic is lame and will not help you.
God has given you what you need to be morally sound.
What you do with what he imparts is your choice.

Man, I'll bet your kids are some depressed and confused individuals. Do you spout the same babble their way while you speak at them and not to them?
Sheesh.


IS YOUR NAME ROBOTECH?

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by bootlen
I noticed, braces, you didn't answer my question. All you did was make statements, most of which are moot, about my posts.



Yawn. WTFE dude. You just have nothing on what I said. I own you again bootlicker.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by braces4impact

Originally posted by bootlen
I noticed, braces, you didn't answer my question. All you did was make statements, most of which are moot, about my posts.



Yawn. WTFE dude. You just have nothing on what I said. I own you again bootlicker.

Yup. S'what I thought. Ya got no answer and no legit response.

Very telling.

[RoBoTeq]

Maybe braces is the byproduct of a homosexual union. That would make him a.....hmmmmmm where would he be concieved and be born from? How do those homos do it again?

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by braces4impact

IS YOUR NAME ROBOTECH?



Nice. Intelligent response.
I own you punkster.

[coolwhip]

Yes,...how do homos have children?:eek: Nevermind, I dont want to know.:D

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by chillbilly
[QUOTE]Originally posted by braces4impact

IS YOUR NAME ROBOTECH?



Nice. Intelligent response.
I own you punkster.


For the 162745 time , you did not provide an argument for me to rebut on that one. It was baseless claims and personal attacks. Neither one proves any point. It only shows you have no intellectual ammo and you are grasping for straws.

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by braces4impact

Originally posted by bootlen
I noticed, braces, you didn't answer my question. All you did was make statements, most of which are moot, about my posts.



Yawn. WTFE dude. You just have nothing on what I said. I own you again bootlicker.

Yup. S'what I thought. Ya got no answer and no legit response.

Very telling.

Anyone who reads our volley (calling it that is actually giveing you to much credit) will clearly see who pussed out out of the argument.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by coolwhip
Yes,...how do homos have children?:eek: Nevermind, I dont want to know.:D

Buttbabybraces does have a ring to it :D

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
Straight from the bible, we have the gift of the ten commandments.
Is there anyone who can point out anything amoral or unethical about these commandments?
Yeah, they were plagiarized.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by chillbilly
Straight from the bible, we have the gift of the ten commandments.
Is there anyone who can point out anything amoral or unethical about these commandments?
Yeah, they were plagiarized.

I would like to see your support for this statement, for reasons of learning not to dispute you.

I see no reason why such teachings of moralities should be considered amoral or unethical if they have been borrowed from other sources.

[geerair]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by chillbilly
Straight from the bible, we have the gift of the ten commandments.
Is there anyone who can point out anything amoral or unethical about these commandments?
Yeah, they were plagiarized.

I would like to see your support for this statement, for reasons of learning not to dispute you.

I see no reason why such teachings of moralities should be considered amoral or unethical if they have been borrowed from other sources.
God didn't credit the original authors. A definite no-no in the literary world.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by chillbilly
Straight from the bible, we have the gift of the ten commandments.
Is there anyone who can point out anything amoral or unethical about these commandments?
Yeah, they were plagiarized.

I would like to see your support for this statement, for reasons of learning not to dispute you.

I see no reason why such teachings of moralities should be considered amoral or unethical if they have been borrowed from other sources.
God didn't credit the original authors. A definite no-no in the literary world.

WHAT!!! What; did you just make this up?

[geerair]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by chillbilly
Straight from the bible, we have the gift of the ten commandments.
Is there anyone who can point out anything amoral or unethical about these commandments?
Yeah, they were plagiarized.

I would like to see your support for this statement, for reasons of learning not to dispute you.

I see no reason why such teachings of moralities should be considered amoral or unethical if they have been borrowed from other sources.
God didn't credit the original authors. A definite no-no in the literary world.

WHAT!!! What; did you just make this up? You don't know about plagiarism?

[RoBoTeq]

Yes geer...yes I do know about plagerism. I know that to say the same thing as someone else is not plagerism and I know that there has to be some evidence that someone else said something before it can be claimed as to have been copied.

You have given no evidence whatsoever that the Ten Commandments do not completely originate with the Bible. On doing a search, I cannot even find from the atheist and other anti-Bible sites any evidence that the Ten Commandments are not Biblical originals.

You are just making crap up!

[geerair]

Check out the Code of Hammurabi. Hell, I thought you already knew this stuff.

[bootlen]

Methinks geer watched "Back to the Future" too many times.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by geerair
Check out the Code of Hammurabi. Hell, I thought you already knew this stuff.

This is a prime example of what I refer to when I state that I believe that God has communicated with cultures other then the Hebrews and that other ancient writings are depictive of those communications.

There are some similarities between other writings and the Ten Commandments while they are not specifically the same. You cannot plagerize a common idea, which is what all of these codes and laws are.

If anything, the existance of other morality codes and laws throughout antiquity further support my belief that God had been communicating with our ancient ancestors for quite some time and in many places.

[geerair]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by geerair
Check out the Code of Hammurabi. Hell, I thought you already knew this stuff.

This is a prime example of what I refer to when I state that I believe that God has communicated with cultures other then the Hebrews and that other ancient writings are depictive of those communications.

There are some similarities between other writings and the Ten Commandments while they are not specifically the same. You cannot plagerize a common idea, which is what all of these codes and laws are.

If anything, the existance of other morality codes and laws throughout antiquity further support my belief that God had been communicating with our ancient ancestors for quite some time and in many places. Certainly a novel assertion. However a quick glance at the the diverse cultures that inhabit/ed the Earth does not support this extra-biblical apology.

[RoBoTeq]

Why not geer? What is your agenda here? Do you disagree with rules of morality?

[bootlen]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
Why not geer? What is your agenda here? Do you disagree with rules of morality?

Oooo! Oooo! I know the answer to that! Can I answer? Please!

[geerair]

[i]Originally posted by RoBoTeq
Why not geer?Well just off the top of my head, there are as many different versions of morality as there are of religions. Certainly there are hundreds of creation myths that bear no resemblance to the bible account.

If your god is the only god then there would have been only one god, only one version of morality. That is not the case.


What is your agenda here? Truth, Justice and the American Way.




Do you disagree with rules of morality?Of which rules of morality are you speaking?

[chillbilly]

Let's start with ANY rules of morality that your "quick checks" can dig up. Secondly, start with the biblical lessons on morality. That should be enough to suffice in you directly answering the question Robo posed to you.
That's the problem with people like you. You come up with rebuttals based on 'quick check' research which means that you are half-a$$ed prepared.
Of course, because you are not thorough, you reply like a half-wit and deflect to other sub-topics.
Jeez man, grow a hair and take a stand. Or do you abstain on any subject on morality?


[Edited by chillbilly on 03-14-2006 at 11:01 AM]

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
Let's start with ANY rules of morality that your "quick checks" can dig up. Okey, dokey. I'd not follow any code of morality that condones slavery or genocide or rape as featured in your bible.





Secondly, start with the biblical lessons on morality. You mean like "thou shall have no other gods? Sorry buddy, unconstitutional.

Maybe you mean, the ever delightful rules for the procurement and treatment of slaves? Sorry buddy, my morality doesn't extend to owning human beings.

I'd say on any count these fine examples from your bible rule out any sense of a proper moral code.






Jeez man, grow a hair and take a stand. Or do you abstain on any subject on morality?Rather the issue is your blind obedience to a code that condones the worst, most horrible offenses against man.




[Edited by geerair on 03-14-2006 at 12:45 PM]

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by geerair

geer says...... I'd not follow any code of morality that condones slavery or genocide or rape as featured in your bible.

More lies. The Bible does not condone any human suffering. It merely presents the historical facts and human condition of the age.
It was written not to "feature" any of the conditions you noted, but simply as a historical account from the witnesses, apostles and atheists that lived then.
Your premise suggests that because barbaric atrocities occur, the translators of biblical theology are somehow responsible. What a feebile diversion from fact and reality.



geer says...............
You mean like "thou shall have no other gods? Sorry buddy, unconstitutional.




"Unconstitutional" by your paltry standards but remember God said to let Ceasar have what is his and God shall have what is his as well.
In other words buddy, the constitution is irrelevant where God and morality are concerned. (A perfect example being the Democratic party... LOL!) The constitution may rule your heart but God rules mine.





geer says............
Maybe you mean, the ever delightful rules for the procurement and treatment of slaves? Sorry buddy, my morality doesn't extend to owning human beings.
I'd say on any count these fine examples from your bible rule out any sense of a proper moral code.



You're so full of sh-t. Show these "fine examples" you post! How do you come to equate what is written as historical fact in biblical scripture to be flawed?
Do you even know where in scripture you are referring to, and what lessons are imparted in the bible when human conditions are noted??
Rhetoric from a blowhard.






geer says...........Rather the issue is your blind obedience to a code that condones the worst, most horrible offenses against man.




The Ten Commandments is not a "code' and does nothing of the sort. Another idiotic attempt to justify an unending spite toward God.
Weak, lawless men of no conscience(you know the ones I mean...right?) condone horrible offenses, not the Bible or it's commandments.





[Edited by chillbilly on 03-14-2006 at 02:20 PM]

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
More lies. The Bible does not condone any human suffering. It merely presents the historical facts and human condition of the age.
It was written not to "feature" any of the conditions you noted, but simply as a historical account from the witnesses, apostles and atheists that lived then.
Your premise suggests that because barbaric atrocities occur, the translators of biblical theology are somehow responsible. What a feebile diversion from fact and reality.Ah, I see. That wasn't god that ordered the massacre of the Amalekites then? In every bible I've read god is clearly identified as the Godfather who ordered the hits on the Amalekites. Hmmmm......Is the bible inerrant or not?

Slavery-Let's review: God's chosen people actively engaged in a barbaric practice to the point that beating a slave to death was ok as long as the slave died at least a day or two later. God did nothing to halt this practice or even punish those who participated in slavery ownership. Gee, this sounds almost exactly like a textbook case of condoning. The bible even has a helpful section on the ins and outs of slave ownership. God's word indeed.




"Unconstitutional" by your paltry standards but remember God said to let Ceasar have what is his and God shall have what is his as well.Not my paltry standards but rather the Founding Fathers standards.



In other words buddy, the constitution is irrelevant where God and morality are concerned. (A perfect example being the Democratic party... LOL!)Hmmmm.......that would also be the view of, of, let me think, off the top of my head, oh yeah, IRAN.






The constitution may rule your heart but God rules mine.That would explain the incessant name calling you engage in and the sour disposition you carry around like a cross.




You're so full of sh-t. Show these "fine examples" you post! How do you come to equate what is written as historical fact in biblical scripture to be flawed?
Do you even know where in scripture you are referring to, and what lessons are imparted in the bible when human conditions are noted??
Rhetoric from a blowhard.Look in your bible. Slavery is abundant and god is ok with it.




Weak, lawless men of no conscience(you know the ones I mean...right?) condone horrible offenses, not the Bible or it's commandments. Whatever gets you through the night. I still look on in amazement at the monumental rationalizations that are required in order to follow this monstrous deity.

[RoBoTeq]

Do any of these idiots that spew out hatred toward believers of the Bible hava any clue as to what "New Testament" means?

The Hebrew Bible is historical accounts of Gods relationship with the peoples that came to be known as Jews.

The New Testament is exactly what it states it is; a "new" testament. Lets try to focus on where we wound up in our relationship with God and a little less on the journey getting there.

[geerair]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
Do any of these idiots that spew out hatred toward believers of the Bible hava any clue as to what "New Testament" means?

The Hebrew Bible is historical accounts of Gods relationship with the peoples that came to be known as Jews.

The New Testament is exactly what it states it is; a "new" testament. Lets try to focus on where we wound up in our relationship with God and a little less on the journey getting there. Same god.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
Do any of these idiots that spew out hatred toward believers of the Bible hava any clue as to what "New Testament" means?

The Hebrew Bible is historical accounts of Gods relationship with the peoples that came to be known as Jews.

The New Testament is exactly what it states it is; a "new" testament. Lets try to focus on where we wound up in our relationship with God and a little less on the journey getting there. Same god.

It absolutely is the same Creator. Only after having been incarnate as a man, He better understood His creation and gave us a whole new deal.

We are created in the image of God. That cannot imply that we are physically like God because God is not physical. So we must be spiritually like God which means that God, like us, is fallible. It seems quite apparent throughout the Bible that God was growing and learning about us and how to better deal with us.

God does not seem to want to control us, but rather to have a loving relationship with those of us who accept Him. The whole physical existance thing seems to stem around our choosing God or God's antagonist who is the spiritual ruler of the physical world.

Physical existance appears to be a basic manner of good versus evil where we are the ones that do the choosing.

[chillbilly]

True. The rationale of those who would not have to choose between right and wrong is that there is no God and it's convenient to not have to be accountable for any choices made.
In their scenario, the only justice pared out is for those that have been physically caught committing sin or violating law.
If the long arm of "constitutional law" didn't catch ya', "well hell, we're OK then"!?
God's law affects justice and exoneration on everyone, not just those who didn't get caught.
If you think you are exempt from God's law, well, I feel sorry for you.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by geerair
Not my paltry standards but rather the Founding Fathers standards.





Oh, and would that be those same founding fathers that pledge allegiance to a nation under God?
Ooops sorry, bad example since a$$holes like you would try everything possible to legislate God out of a pledge and schools as well.
Oh and BTW, Iran does not have a constitution based on our principles and democracy based on freedom of religion, fool. Just wanted to make sure to get some more name calling in.

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
Oh, and would that be those same founding fathers that pledge allegiance to a nation under God?Kinda doubt it seeing as how the pledge wasn't written until 1892 and the phrase "under god" wasn't added until 1952.



Ooops sorry, bad example since a$$holes like you would try everything possible to legislate God out of a pledge and schools as well.Legislate? Name one piece of legislation that has been proposed by a$$holes like me.

BTW-nice language for a Christian



Oh and BTW, Iran does not have a constitution based on our principles and democracy based on freedom of religion, fool. Just wanted to make sure to get some more name calling in. Didn't say they did. I said they have a constitution based on the same view you have that god trumps the constitution. In other words a theocracy.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

It absolutely is the same Creator. Only after having been incarnate as a man, He better understood His creation and gave us a whole new deal.



Dang it, Robo. I ain't up to an argument with you so don't expect one. But yer jus' plain wrong here and I couldn't just give ya a pass.

When I get over my Beaufort Crud, I'll be ready to discuss this but 1 argument a day is all I got in me right now.

[RoBoTeq]

I know you don't agree with me on this booty. Just take comfort in the fact that I am always open to changing my views on this if better data becomes available. As it is, I just work with what I have to work with and no argument yet has convinced me other then what I believe.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
I know you don't agree with me on this booty. Just take comfort in the fact that I am always open to changing my views on this if better data becomes available. As it is, I just work with what I have to work with and no argument yet has convinced me other then what I believe.

How's about the prophecies of Christ's D,B,&R in the OT? How's about teh prophecies of His Kingdom yet to come? Would that help?

[RoBoTeq]

Well now boots, I am just not following your agenda here. I don't believe I stated anything against what you may be thinking I did.

Even though I believe that most of the messianic prophecies that Christian apologists come up with out of the Hebrew Bible are a pretty good stretch and that only Christians read into the Hebrew Bible text many of these prophecies, there is no doubt in my mind that the Hebrew Bible is the forward to the New Testament events.

[kim]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
[QUOTE
It absolutely is the same Creator. Only after having been incarnate as a man, He better understood His creation and gave us a whole new deal.


I think you got that backwards.
God has been trying to show us the way throughout history. Us pridefull stupid humans just could not get it. God became flesh to help us understand him. Jesus life is like a training video. Previous communication with God was like a ghost writen book being translated from a foreign language.

People still don't get it. Some think you can be scared into salvation. Some people think it is OK to covet the prize (salvation). Some people think you can say the right creeds and practice the right rituals to earn salvation.

Some people like greer look for the little details to pick apart. Some people try to defend all the little details like Noah's ark. They refuse to look for a big picture.

It could be that suffering is just a way of life that we have made for ourselves. God maybe doesn't care about those little details of this material existance. Shoot Jesus just about gave himself up to be tortured to death. God is a spiritual being. Maybe the spiritual side is all that matters.

(It would do no good repeating all the stuff written to greer about his Hamarabi code and Gilgamesh pledjerism ideas. He will not listen to them this time either.)

[kim]

Originally posted by braces4impact
[QUOTE]If we don't hold the bank teller morally liable for putting the money in the bag because she was forced to, then on the flip side of the coin could we praise her for doing something that might be considered good if she was forced to do it?

"I command you to put the money in the bag" is no different than "I command you to honor me".

What if some stranger came to you on the street and commanded you to love them? What if they put a gun to your head and commanded you to love them? Does it make a difference that they have a gun to your head or not? Of coarse not. You may fake or give the illusion that you love them to stay alive till the police get there, but you really do not value that person in the way they want you to.


Ethics is about values. Values must be chosen free from threat of force or harm.

Christians believe that if you fail to honor the ten commandments then you are to be doomed to punishment. The fact that a literal gun is not used is besides the point. When the threat of force is in play morality is out of the picture. A "moral commandment" is a contradiction.


Robo explained the traditional meaning of commandment as well as anybody can. There is no gun, no force, no coercion. You have the free will to chose ethical valvues or not. God is not going to punish you. Suppose the boss said "everybody that helps clean the shop today can have the day off tommarrow with pay." Is he punishing the people that lay around and not help? He gave you the choice. You chose to try to help or not. Even if you are not very good at that particular task, you still get the day off with pay.


Christian do not beleive failing to honor the commandment brings doom and punishment. Christian beleive God will forgive any oversight we make. We can't earn God's love. It has been given freely. All we can do is try to be better people and try to give God a reason to be proud of us. God does not put a gun to our head. We put the gun to our head. God did not come storming out of heaven the whoop up on Adam and Eve. He seemed kind of nice. He said what's wrong. It was Adam and Eve that hid from God.
"The wages of sin is death" That is not a punishment. It is a repreave. Imagine living forever in this messed up world. After a certian time we get to go back to God's chosen state: by his side. By show of hands- who wants to live in this crime and pain filled world forever. Now who wants to go to a place where everybody is good to each other. Being with God for eternity is just icing on the cake.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
Well now boots, I am just not following your agenda here. I don't believe I stated anything against what you may be thinking I did.

Even though I believe that most of the messianic prophecies that Christian apologists come up with out of the Hebrew Bible are a pretty good stretch and that only Christians read into the Hebrew Bible text many of these prophecies, there is no doubt in my mind that the Hebrew Bible is the forward to the New Testament events.

I told ya I shouldn't be discussing this issue till this Bft Crud has passed. And I hate talking about these issues via a typed medium.

We'll have to start another thread someday soon and maybe I can show the oneness of the 2 Testaments.

[chillbilly]

Originally posted by kim

Originally posted by braces4impact
[QUOTE]If we don't hold the bank teller morally liable for putting the money in the bag because she was forced to, then on the flip side of the coin could we praise her for doing something that might be considered good if she was forced to do it?

"I command you to put the money in the bag" is no different than "I command you to honor me".

What if some stranger came to you on the street and commanded you to love them? What if they put a gun to your head and commanded you to love them? Does it make a difference that they have a gun to your head or not? Of coarse not. You may fake or give the illusion that you love them to stay alive till the police get there, but you really do not value that person in the way they want you to.


Ethics is about values. Values must be chosen free from threat of force or harm.

Christians believe that if you fail to honor the ten commandments then you are to be doomed to punishment. The fact that a literal gun is not used is besides the point. When the threat of force is in play morality is out of the picture. A "moral commandment" is a contradiction.


Robo explained the traditional meaning of commandment as well as anybody can. There is no gun, no force, no coercion. You have the free will to chose ethical valvues or not. God is not going to punish you. Suppose the boss said "everybody that helps clean the shop today can have the day off tommarrow with pay." Is he punishing the people that lay around and not help? He gave you the choice. You chose to try to help or not. Even if you are not very good at that particular task, you still get the day off with pay.


Christian do not beleive failing to honor the commandment brings doom and punishment. Christian beleive God will forgive any oversight we make. We can't earn God's love. It has been given freely. All we can do is try to be better people and try to give God a reason to be proud of us. God does not put a gun to our head. We put the gun to our head. God did not come storming out of heaven the whoop up on Adam and Eve. He seemed kind of nice. He said what's wrong. It was Adam and Eve that hid from God.
"The wages of sin is death" That is not a punishment. It is a repreave. Imagine living forever in this messed up world. After a certian time we get to go back to God's chosen state: by his side. By show of hands- who wants to live in this crime and pain filled world forever. Now who wants to go to a place where everybody is good to each other. Being with God for eternity is just icing on the cake.





Very well put Kim and I have to note that there has been no rebuttal from braces on your post. It is refreshingly smooth and succinct and illustrates what God wants for mankind. Unfortunately, most non believers fixate on punishment, pain and convoluted theories without studying God's intent.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by kim

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
[QUOTE
It absolutely is the same Creator. Only after having been incarnate as a man, He better understood His creation and gave us a whole new deal.


I think you got that backwards.
God has been trying to show us the way throughout history. Us pridefull stupid humans just could not get it. God became flesh to help us understand him. Jesus life is like a training video. Previous communication with God was like a ghost writen book being translated from a foreign language.


Could very well be Kim. I don't see it that way, but that certainly is reasonable to think.

[braces4impact]

"The wages of sin is death" That is not a punishment. It is a repreave.

And what is sin? A transgression against this alleged god. Yea you have the "freedom" to chose rather or not you will follow this dogma. Yet if there is a consequence involved then it is not freedom that it at play any longer. To say that it is is a slap in the face of what it means to be free. A man can tell you that the wages of not bowing before him is death and still chose not to bow before him. Yet I'm sure you would want him prosecuted for harassment and threatening violence.


Imagine living forever in this messed up world. After a certian time we get to go back to God's chosen state: by his side. By show of hands- who wants to live in this crime and pain filled world forever.


And this is another reason why religion is a part of the problem in the world. People that have attitudes like that are only a hindrance to making things better for all of us. Instead of focusing on this all alleged afterlife let's try to focus on the one that we have here and now.


Now who wants to go to a place where everybody is good to each other. Being with God for eternity is just icing on the cake.

Who really wants to live forever? Have you really ever thought about that? Tell me, what is it that you are going to do in heaven forever that is going to be so nice, FOREVER? The reason that life is valuable is BECAUSE it is finite. The reason gold is valuable is because it shines and it is finite. Like life. To say that life is infinite is to devalue life. Another reason for you to detest this archaic garbage you hold as true.

Christianity demeans life, freedom, values, individualism, and self worth. What a sick and perverted philosophy.

[RoBoTeq]

Would someone please explain to braces that she is trying to comprehend algebra in a foreign language class. She really just does not understand even the basics of Biblical writings.

[braces4impact]

I understand more about then bible than most believers do. I also know how it came to be.

[royc]

Very interesting read. I have to agree that whoever wrote the ten commandments, did not intend it to be a law of force, but a reminder what being good means. One could take all whats in the ten commandments, and what Jesus attempted to convey, in to one simple sentence.

"Do unto others, as you would want others do unto you."

Now this sentence may look simplistic at first, but if one is realy interested in to its meaning, will find it very profound. One does not need a religion or a believe in any god, to understand what it means. Its kind of odd, that the very people who claim they believe in the ten commandments and Jesus, brake the very same commandments they speak of, by hurtfull name calling. I have no problem with anyones believe as long its not hurtfull to anyone.

Our very nature is wanting to know the unknown, to understand our fears and the fear of death. The fear of death is what drives religions to claim what they claim, its held over our head like a club. To obey is to find salvation so they claim, other religions claim 10 virgins, but is that realy different then claiming you will go to heaven and sit by the fathers side.

I've said it before and I will say it again, God is not outside of you, you will not find it in a book, you will not find it in a church, all you can do is look within you and find whats good, and throw away the evil within you. When you do, you will be good and with God.

The problems of this world since the beginning, and still today, is greed, lust and power. Power, greed and lust still rules this planet, and we play right in to its hands by compromising ourselfs by useless religious discussions, "he said", "they say", and pointing to books written not to enlighten us, but to enslave us to the evil rulers of this world.

If religion and a believe in a god is the answer to this worlds salvation, I see no proof of it. Were still killing each other by the billions with no end in sight. The only salvation we may have, is that the very beings who gave Moses those same commandments, intervene, and tell us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help us God.


Roy