So much for the pros in my area...

[dandar]

I had a Goodman 16 seer HP installed in my condo to replace all electric heat setup (only electricity is available, can't get gas or oil). The first two months it never ran right due to a hardware issue that Goodman fixed and reimbursed me for the higher electricity costs. With that move Goodman may have made me a customer for life.

Anyways, the only issue I had for 2 years was that the air coming out of the vents was like a freaking hurricane. It could lift a heavy carpet if I put it over the vent (like in a bathroom for example). When I originally told my installer about it he told me it's normal or the HP wouldn't keep up heating the house. At the time I though he was right because even in the coldest temps (15-20 deg) it would shut off after about 30 minutes or so, come back on after 10. I had a different company come out and check it out and they told me everything is properly set up.

Fast forward 2 years. I was at a neighbor's condo with identical setup to mine (different brand and set up by her bf) and her system didn't blow nearly as hard as mine. I went into the instruction manual of my unit. Turns out my air handler is setup to work with units between 2.5 and 5 tons. Even though my unit is 2 tons the pair is listed as compatible and was eligible to receive the energy tax credit when I got it.

I looked at the fan/blower settings which are controlled by the jumpers on the inside of the air handler. I set the t-stat to off, cut the breaker on the unit (wasn't going near the incoming wire so no need to cut it on my electrical panel) and opened up the air handler.

After looking at the jumpers, according to the instruction manual, my blower was set for a 5 ton outside unit, which obviously would be for a much larger house. That's why it was a hurricane coming out of my vents! I changed it to a setting for a 2.5 ton unit (the lowest on the air handler) and the air is comparable to what it is at my neighbor's condo or my mom's house (oil heat but air pressure similar coming out of the vents). Moreover it's 20 degrees outside and the unit runs continuously which what I read is the normal behavior for heat pumps in 20 degree weather.

I'll monitor my energy usage but I have a feeling that 2 different HVAC contractors have missed this or one set it up wrong and the other didn't want to change anything for fear of taking ownership of a unit he may not have been familiar with.

[grasshopper]

Good job by you, and sorry the two other techs were stupid or lazy and could not or did not do a simple aiflow set-up..... one issue I have seen with a few Goodman units is for whatever reason in the ARI certification book the matches do not make any sense. Their 2 ton heatpumps are not matched to their furnaces with 3 ton drives but are with their 4 and 5 ton drives only! I always thought the ARI rating thing was a mistake but it has not changed. If the install is not matched then there is no rebates. If you have the variable speed motor then you have to set the airflow down to the lowest setting (2.5 tons) and then do a 10% reduction to get as close to the proper airflow as possible.

[beenthere]

If you read the manual more, you may even discover that there is a way to slow the blower down a little more yet. Depending on which air handler it is.

[dandar]

In my unit it's 15% reduction and yes, I did that. That's part of the 2.5 ton setting. The 3 ton setting has the reduction off.

[beenthere]

What is the model number of the air handler.

[dandar]

To be fair to the installers, my air duct setup may have confused the initial installer and spooked the second one I hired to double check the settings. My condo is all on one floor (kind of like a square shaped ranch house with a square shaped basement under it). The previous owners finished half of the basement and I finished another quarter of it. Together with upstairs I have about 1700 square feet of living area which would call for more than a 2 ton unit.

The problem with it is that they only spliced 2 soft pipes into the main line and the air pressure in the 2 basement ducts is very low as a result. The ground, with heat above keep it in the low 60 (I have upstairs at a balmy 73 because my wife likes to wear only a t-shirt in the middle of a winter :-D ). The quarter of the basement that I finished has the main duct running through and a bathroom sized opening that was already there that I kept, but with the door open to the other part of the basement and a shared single return in that are it doesn't help much. We use a portable heater there to get it a bit warmer if we need it so the main heat there is just to keep it above 60.

I'd guess that the whole setup uses about as much as about 1200-1400 square foot condo would use and 1100 square feet in the summer as basement stays cool naturally and I have the vents closed. If I had a 2 ton setting, I'd probably not use it for that reason and it's also probably the reason why my installer went with AEPF3137 instead of AEPF1830 which would have been more suitable for a place like mine.

If I had the ducts redesigned to heat both upstairs and downstairs equally, i'd have to set the air handler to 3-3.5 ton and replace the outside unit with a larger one. It's just not cost effective solution in a condo. Maybe it would've been when I was first replacing the elctric heat/AC setup but it's too late for it now. I'd never get a return on that investment and I want to sell in the next 3-5 years.

Of course I didn't know any of this at the time. I learned all this (hvac unit and air ducts best practice) once the unit was here and operational. It's also interesting that none of the HVAC guys (I had 2 prior to install and 1 after) nor the home inspector mentioned the unbalanced setup. Not one did the measurement of square footage, number of windows, insulation and number of windows to calculate the proper CFM and tonnage. I guess it goes to show just how many people in this industry are just in it for the quick buck.

[dandar]

Ps. The AOP contractor map you guys setup here is a brilliant idea. You better believe it that I'll hire a contractor off it when I buy a house and need to upgrade/check its systems.

[S.T.Ranger]

To be fair to the installers, my air duct setup may have confused the initial installer and spooked the second one I hired to double check the settings. My condo is all on one floor (kind of like a square shaped ranch house with a square shaped basement under it). The previous owners finished half of the basement and I finished another quarter of it. Together with upstairs I have about 1700 square feet of living area which would call for more than a 2 ton unit.

The problem with it is that they only spliced 2 soft pipes into the main line and the air pressure in the 2 basement ducts is very low as a result. The ground, with heat above keep it in the low 60 (I have upstairs at a balmy 73 because my wife likes to wear only a t-shirt in the middle of a winter :-D ). The quarter of the basement that I finished has the main duct running through and a bathroom sized opening that was already there that I kept, but with the door open to the other part of the basement and a shared single return in that are it doesn't help much. We use a portable heater there to get it a bit warmer if we need it so the main heat there is just to keep it above 60.

I'd guess that the whole setup uses about as much as about 1200-1400 square foot condo would use and 1100 square feet in the summer as basement stays cool naturally and I have the vents closed. If I had a 2 ton setting, I'd probably not use it for that reason and it's also probably the reason why my installer went with AEPF3137 instead of AEPF1830 which would have been more suitable for a place like mine.

If I had the ducts redesigned to heat both upstairs and downstairs equally, i'd have to set the air handler to 3-3.5 ton and replace the outside unit with a larger one. It's just not cost effective solution in a condo. Maybe it would've been when I was first replacing the elctric heat/AC setup but it's too late for it now. I'd never get a return on that investment and I want to sell in the next 3-5 years.

Of course I didn't know any of this at the time. I learned all this (hvac unit and air ducts best practice) once the unit was here and operational. It's also interesting that none of the HVAC guys (I had 2 prior to install and 1 after) nor the home inspector mentioned the unbalanced setup. Not one did the measurement of square footage, number of windows, insulation and number of windows to calculate the proper CFM and tonnage. I guess it goes to show just how many people in this industry are just in it for the quick buck.

Hello Dandar, two quick questions: 1-how much return is in the basement; 2-have you considered adding more supply to the basement?

[dandar]

What is the model number of the air handler.

AEPF3137

The AHRI cert shows AEPF313716A*+TXV, the outside unit on the cert is DSZ160241A*

[beenthere]

Its your high air flow that helps to make the lower level cooler, because the upper level heats up to quick.

An d as I recall, on the 3137, you can get it down to 800 or 820 CFM. Takes a tech that can think for himself to do it.

[dandar]

Hello Dandar, two quick questions: 1-how much return is in the basement; 2-have you considered adding more supply to the basement?

There is 1 return in the basement. There are 2 returns upstairs. The layout is fairly open and the doors to the two bedrooms are normally kept open. I have about an inch of space below the doors (cause I replaced thick carpets with 3/8" hard wood floors and didn't bother changing the doors to match reduced floor height). Actually the way the air handler was originally set up (my guess is around 1800 CFM) the draft was so strong that it could slam the doors closed. Ghosts in the house, lol.

Like I mentioned in a post before, I think adding more air supply would result in upgrading the outside unit which would make it economically not feasible. We don't spend much time down there now and when we're there we can manage with the portable heater. The setup I have will pay for itself over 3 to 4 years so I'm halfway there already (19 cents per kilowatt hour in CT). I'll be selling and upgrading to a house within 2 to 5 years from now.

[hvacvegas]

Its your high air flow that helps to make the lower level cooler, because the upper level heats up to quick.

An d as I recall, on the 3137, you can get it down to 800 or 820 CFM. Takes a tech that can think for himself to do it.

Or a tech with the letter from goodman ;).

Dandar, it is possible to get that blower down to around 800.

We use that same airhandler all the time on 2 ton outdoor units, and is correct.

Unfortunetely, to get the blower down, you have to cut things on the control board. If you cut it, and you cut the wrong one, your screwed.
Kind of like the blue wire on a bomb ;)

My suggestion, would be find an Amana dealer. Not a company that sells goodman. Not a goodman "dealer". Find an Amana dealer.

Specifically come out and tell them what you want it to do. Tell their service manager, not their phone answering people ;).

[S.T.Ranger]

There is 1 return in the basement. There are 2 returns upstairs. The layout is fairly open and the doors to the two bedrooms are normally kept open. I have about an inch of space below the doors (cause I replaced thick carpets with 3/8" hard wood floors and didn't bother changing the doors to match reduced floor height). Actually the way the air handler was originally set up (my guess is around 1800 CFM) the draft was so strong that it could slam the doors closed. Ghosts in the house, lol.

Like I mentioned in a post before, I think adding more air supply would result in upgrading the outside unit which would make it economically not feasible. We don't spend much time down there now and when we're there we can manage with the portable heater. The setup I have will pay for itself over 3 to 4 years so I'm halfway there already (19 cents per kilowatt hour in CT). I'll be selling and upgrading to a house within 2 to 5 years from now.


If you could determine whether the upstairs returns can accomodate the system (and I recommend a local contractor to verify before trying), you may be able to reduce the amount of heat being pulled from the area.

Also, depending on the type of grill used down stairs, you may be able to increase supply air by removing the grills. You mentioned "soft lines" or something to that effect, which I am assuming to be flex leads, which also makes me think there is a boot and a grill, and that they are not tap-ins (grills directly on the supply trunk).

High or low return downstairs?

[S.T.Ranger]

There is 1 return in the basement. There are 2 returns upstairs. The layout is fairly open and the doors to the two bedrooms are normally kept open. I have about an inch of space below the doors (cause I replaced thick carpets with 3/8" hard wood floors and didn't bother changing the doors to match reduced floor height). Actually the way the air handler was originally set up (my guess is around 1800 CFM) the draft was so strong that it could slam the doors closed. Ghosts in the house, lol.

Like I mentioned in a post before, I think adding more air supply would result in upgrading the outside unit which would make it economically not feasible. We don't spend much time down there now and when we're there we can manage with the portable heater. The setup I have will pay for itself over 3 to 4 years so I'm halfway there already (19 cents per kilowatt hour in CT). I'll be selling and upgrading to a house within 2 to 5 years from now.


If you could determine whether the upstairs returns can accomodate the system (and I recommend a local contractor to verify before trying, damage could result if return air is restricted), you may be able to reduce the amount of heat being pulled from the area.

Also, depending on the type of grill used down stairs, you may be able to increase supply air by removing the grills. You mentioned "soft lines" or something to that effect, which I am assuming to be flex leads, which also makes me think there is a boot and a grill, and that they are not tap-ins (grills directly on the supply trunk).

High or low return downstairs?

[SBKold]

Is this a 2 speed outdoor unit?

Has the fan ever been set up to run properly on Lo speed if so?

[dandar]

These are good suggestions. I'll talk to my wife. I'm not sure whether we want to do this as heating the basement to equalize the temp on both floors might increase our electricity bill and we don't spend enough time down there to justify it. Then again the difference in temperature could be partly to blame why we don't spend that much time down there in the first place. Thanks for the suggestions.

[motoguy128]

These are good suggestions. I'll talk to my wife. I'm not sure whether we want to do this as heating the basement to equalize the temp on both floors might increase our electricity bill and we don't spend enough time down there to justify it. Then again the difference in temperature could be partly to blame why we don't spend that much time down there in the first place. Thanks for the suggestions.


That is a downside sometiems ot balancing out different parts fo a home. IF you were controlling to the most conditoned space... it will take more BTU's to heat everythign else if it's balanced. But sometimes comfort is worth the extra money.