Trasformer tripping the secondary control voltage

[valdezjc]

Hello, any body that can send me in the rigth direction, I have a heatpump ICP PFH060H000A that is making the secondary control voltage to trip(transformer is multi-voltage 120/208/230/40Va) when is in heat mode. I have check the defrost card and the sensor to ground looking for any cain of short with out success. Any help will be highly appreciated.

[Mille Racer 69]

What about cooling mode or emergency heat?
If not in emergency heat, check ohms @ contractors, should be somewhere around 8 ohms

[Baycienda]

Since this is posted in tech to tech and not in aop and I need to get my post count up, here you go. Check for a short going from your frost control board to your reversing valve. If you only have low voltage issues in heat try removing the wires from your reversing valve and securing them where they will not short and see if it blows. If it doesn't, it could be the reversing valves solenoid. Try taking a piece of plastic flexible conduit and putting it on your reversing valve wires. If its only tripping on heat, its localized to your O terminal. Some shorts on reversing valve wires can be really small.

[trey r]

Since this is posted in tech to tech and not in aop and I need to get my post count up, here you go. Check for a short going from your frost control board to your reversing valve. If you only have low voltage issues in heat try removing the wires from your reversing valve and securing them where they will not short and see if it blows. If it doesn't, it could be the reversing valves solenoid. Try taking a piece of plastic flexible conduit and putting it on your reversing valve wires. If its only tripping on heat, its localized to your O terminal. Some shorts on reversing valve wires can be really small.

ICP doesn't energize the reversing valve in heat execpt during defrost.

[trey r]

Hello, any body that can send me in the rigth direction, I have a heatpump ICP PFH060H000A that is making the secondary control voltage to trip(transformer is multi-voltage 120/208/230/40Va) when is in heat mode. I have check the defrost card and the sensor to ground looking for any cain of short with out success. Any help will be highly appreciated.


Is this short immediate or intermittent?

[AC5096]

I'd be breaking out the ohm meter. Check resistance of all the energized loads in the heating mode, and inspect the control wiring.

Having a little problem with the OP's comment on the multitap primary Xformer. As long as it's wired for the correct line voltage, it shouldn't be a problem.
Don't think that would figure into the equation.

Correct me if I'm wrong. A RV that energizes in the heat mode is connected to the B terminal.

[ncboston]

I had a Carrier heat pump about a year ago that would trip the lv ckt brkr, but only when coming out of heat. Isolated everything....everything ohm'd good..
Finally found that when the heat cycle ended it tripped because the secondary was grounded.

[Mille Racer 69]

If the reversing valve t state wire is blue then the valve is energized in heating, orange is for cooling.

[platchford]

If the reversing valve t state wire is blue then the valve is energized in heating, orange is for cooling.

If you are referring to the wires from the stat to the outdoor unit, the wire can be any color. Depending on the installer and the number and color of the conductors in the wire they ran they could have used blue for common instead... or anything else they wanted to do. :.02:

[DarrinB]

ICP doesn't energize the reversing valve in heat execpt during defrost.

The question in your next post is a great one. On reading the op, I was immediately wondering if this 'short' is happening when the unit goes into defrost.

To the OP, is this shorting out as soon as there is a call for heat, or is the short occurring at some point during the heating cycle? Like, say, when the unit goes to defrost?

[Baycienda]

AC5096 You are right, I apologize. O is used for Ruud, Rheem, and Weather King. ICP products (Heil, Tempstar) are ran off of B. But I do believe that if you break the connection that holds the problem you will find it a lot quicker.

[Williamsma]

AC5096 You are right, I apologize. O is used for Ruud, Rheem, and Weather King. ICP products (Heil, Tempstar) are ran off of B. But I do believe that if you break the connection that holds the problem you will find it a lot quicker.

Ruud/Rheem energizes the rv in heat which is a B terminal, most everbody else energizes the rv in cool which is an O terminal, and trane uses a B terminal for common.

[valdezjc]

I had a Carrier heat pump about a year ago that would trip the lv ckt brkr, but only when coming out of heat. Isolated everything....everything ohm'd good..
Finally found that when the heat cycle ended it tripped because the secondary was grounded.


thank you guys for all the inputs, This unit runs good in heat all the way until set point is satisface, then it will tripp the secondary voltage. I did remember seen one of the leads of the secondary grounded to the chassys of the unit.
Would this be the problem.....?
This morning I when back to this unit and remove the thermostat from the base and check the jumper settings, they were all OK, and when I put the thermostat back the system come back ON and star the heating cycle like nothing happen. I be going back tomorrow and remove the ground wire to the secondary.
Thanks for all the inputs

[atoztech]

I did remember seen one of the leads of the secondary grounded to the chassys of the unit.

As long as its your common on the secondary going to your chassis ground its fine, but make sure its grounded to common. Is this an imediate short on a call for heat or intermittant?

[Mille Racer 69]

If you are referring to the wires from the stat to the outdoor unit, the wire can be any color. Depending on the installer and the number and color of the conductors in the wire they ran they could have used blue for common instead... or anything else they wanted to do. :.02:

And it is that installer i am cussing out in my head.
The wires are color coded for a reason.
An installer that does not use the wires as intended
Does not have job security. :.02:

[ncboston]

thank you guys for all the inputs, This unit runs good in heat all the way until set point is satisface, then it will tripp the secondary voltage. I did remember seen one of the leads of the secondary grounded to the chassys of the unit.
Would this be the problem.....?
This morning I when back to this unit and remove the thermostat from the base and check the jumper settings, they were all OK, and when I put the thermostat back the system come back ON and star the heating cycle like nothing happen. I be going back tomorrow and remove the ground wire to the secondary.
Thanks for all the inputs

Good Luck.

[airman6290]

If you are tripping the low voltage then you obviously have a short one of the easiest ways to determine which circuit it is in is to isolate each one until it stops tripping. you can do this at the air handler by disconnecting one of the low voltage wires at a time example disconnect the white and cycle it or just use your ampmeter you should be drawing considerably less than 2 amps. If the white isn't the problem try the yellow and agin power up and check amps when you find the problem circuit then check the wiring and any relays in that circuit Darrell

[valdezjc]

Thank you all for your good inputs... i when ahead and replace the defrost card after I was able to recreate the fault.
The fault was cause for the initial call for heat. I should spend more time in trying to recreate the problem...after I replace the board everithing works like a charm.
Thank you again to all!!!

[trey r]

And it is that installer i am cussing out in my head.
The wires are color coded for a reason.
An installer that does not use the wires as intended
Does not have job security. :.02:



Why? They are color coded for ease of tracing. For a seasoned tech it is only a pet peeve, not really an issue. I don't know about installers losing their jobs over it.

I had a short in a wall today and used a grey conductor for y. :gah:

[bover]

OK, on line voltage to transformer unhooked on one side, big spark or little spark when touch together? Big spark is over 10 amps, will smoke transformer, and indicates a direct short in low voltage wires. Check for goats in back yard (true story). :cheers:

[DarrinB]

OK, on line voltage to transformer unhooked on one side, big spark or little spark when touch together? Big spark is over 10 amps, will smoke transformer, and indicates a direct short in low voltage wires. Check for goats in back yard (true story). :cheers:

Or a homeowner with a weedeater.

[Mille Racer 69]

Why? They are color coded for ease of tracing. For a seasoned tech it is only a pet peeve, not really an issue. I don't know about installers losing their jobs over it.

I had a short in a wall today and used a grey conductor for y. :gah:


Here is my point*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *here is where you are


I will just call all the vehicle makers and let them know they don't have to make all their positive battery cables red and negative cables black. They can make them whatever color they want and switch them around whenever they want. Lets see how many extra hours it will take the assembly techs to trace wires to make sure they have the right wires connected and lets see how many componants get fried before they realize that is a terrible idea.

[platchford]

Here is my point*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *here is where you are


I will just call all the vehicle makers and let them know they don't have to make all their positive battery cables red and negative cables black. They can make them whatever color they want and switch them around whenever they want. Lets see how many extra hours it will take the assembly techs to trace wires to make sure they have the right wires connected and lets see how many componants get fried before they realize that is a terrible idea.

I'm with Trey on this. While I will use certain wire colors on a new install as much as possible, when you do a changeout or find a wire shorted then you have to make do. If the service tech doesn't look at the grey wire on the stat that I had to use for Y then that's his problem. Also, what do you do when you 'need' a blue (or orange) wire but there is no blue (or orange) wire in the thermostat wire? What do you do when you have a two stage furnace with a two stage AC? What do you use for W2 and Y2? There is no standard for this under NEC. Some manufacturers use blue for common... others use black. I don't see what the big deal is.

[Mille Racer 69]

I'm with Trey on this. While I will use certain wire colors on a new install as much as possible, when you do a changeout or find a wire shorted then you have to make do. If the service tech doesn't look at the grey wire on the stat that I had to use for Y then that's his problem. Also, what do you do when you 'need' a blue (or orange) wire but there is no blue (or orange) wire in the thermostat wire? What do you do when you have a two stage furnace with a two stage AC? What do you use for W2 and Y2? There is no standard for this under NEC. Some manufacturers use blue for common... others use black. I don't see what the big deal is.

I am not talking about those situations.
Many times I have found a t stat wire to be grounding out or whatever and will just use a wire that is unused.
I am speaking of new installs or changouts.
If you find red is grounding out and shorting your transformer, use

"X" wire that is just sitting there and not doing anything.
How do you know what red does? Because it SHOULD be uniform
And anybody fresh out of trade school should know what the red wire on a thermostat does. Now if the argument is that how do i know someone else didnt find insulation rubbing away on a wire and just used another color, then I can agree with that. Make sure you look at the terminals. But of the argument is that the color of wire doesnt matter uou can hook it up however you want then screw that. That mindstate is ignorant, arrogant and lazy. Maybe i misread the context of his argument, but i percieved ot as the 2nd one I mentioned. The colors don't matter, just hook it up however you want. I would fire that installer if he didn't change that habbit.

[AC5096]

My wish before I die is, the industry standardize the color coding for control wiring.

It's not really a big deal other than time scratching your butt firguring out what wire goes to what and why the installer was to cheap to run 8 conductor to the condensing unit instead of 5 conductor.

I always ran 8 conductor for a 1 stage cool 2 stage heat HP to the stat and condensing unit just to keep things orderly and simple for the next guy who came along to repair or service the unit.

[platchford]

Mille Racer 69: I understand what you are getting at. I'm totally with you on new installs and as you say, the R should pretty much always be red.




My wish before I die is, the industry standardize the color coding for control wiring.

It's not really a big deal other than time scratching your butt firguring out what wire goes to what and why the installer was to cheap to run 8 conductor to the condensing unit instead of 5 conductor.

I always ran 8 conductor for a 1 stage cool 2 stage heat HP to the stat and condensing unit just to keep things orderly and simple for the next guy who came along to repair or service the unit.

I've felt this way before. Over time it's occurred to me that the problem is different unit configurations would require different wire colors and some of the 5 or 6 conductor wires don't contain the colors 'needed' for a particular job. That being said, with the move to communicating systems perhaps in the future we can have a standard with 4 wires. :)

[Epicfail]

Electricity is color blind. This was drilled into my head through my apprenticeship.

Fact is you all can ask for color standardization but the manufacturers will not go along with it. See Trane for explanation. One thing I don't understand is how some will go into great explanation on why T-Stat wire needs to be standard colors regardless of any variables.

However when you get into a unit (ill use the last unit I worked on as an example) a heat pump built by American Standard.

Yellow Wire (Compressor) comes into a mullex plug, comes out Yellow with a Red stripe, picked up HP switch, comes back out same colors, picks up low pressure Blue with black stripe (2 colors that go well.....) comes back out same, then loss of charge switch, solid white... Herm.. white, really? How the #$%^ does this make...

Point is, the Manufactures are having a hay day with the (Hey new guy, pick a color you want to use for Loss Of Charge... CLEAR IS MY FAVORITE COLOR)

At our Company we use this.

Red = Power
Black = Common
Yellow = Compressor
White = Heat
Green = Blower
Orange/Blue = RV
Pink = Second Stage Heat/Cool
Opposite of Needed RV color = Second Stage Heat Cool when needed.

This is our Guild Line, so we have a standard on our installed equipment, makes trouble shooting easy. Lucky for us we have been doing this from 1995 (color standards that is, not 8 wire) so we know our customers well.

/end rant

[ironpit]

Lot of good points have been made. I believe goodman has gone to a blue/pink wire for compressor. I have seen some brand equipment use gray for fan.. Some companies use black, others blue for common. There are some who have gone to international standards. Westinghouse had a line that had rv's fail to cool. I have seen black ,blue, brown, and white used for common... not to mention red! There was a real old timer who knew his stuff, who used one color for everything. He wasn't lazy or stupid( at least not as for knowing his trade), he just expected his people to know their components! If that rv failed to cool or failed to heat , you had better know it. His way was different, but he made you pay attention. You had better know where the other end of that conductor was landed and why. He built a very successful business in his day. You didn't guess or "assume" with him. It would be nice if everyone was on the same page, but they are not. I think it starts with the manufacturers, maybe I"m wrong. No matter, I will always check that breaker and use my meter.

[ironpit]

I failed to mention the t'stats that have a common o/b terminal that requires internal programming to differentiate the rvs' mode of operation. What color there? Goes back to manufacturer.

[platchford]

Electricity is color blind. This was drilled into my head through my apprenticeship.

Fact is you all can ask for color standardization but the manufacturers will not go along with it. See Trane for explanation. One thing I don't understand is how some will go into great explanation on why T-Stat wire needs to be standard colors regardless of any variables.

However when you get into a unit (ill use the last unit I worked on as an example) a heat pump built by American Standard.

Yellow Wire (Compressor) comes into a mullex plug, comes out Yellow with a Red stripe, picked up HP switch, comes back out same colors, picks up low pressure Blue with black stripe (2 colors that go well.....) comes back out same, then loss of charge switch, solid white... Herm.. white, really? How the #$%^ does this make...

Point is, the Manufactures are having a hay day with the (Hey new guy, pick a color you want to use for Loss Of Charge... CLEAR IS MY FAVORITE COLOR)

At our Company we use this.

Red = Power
Black = Common
Yellow = Compressor
White = Heat
Green = Blower
Orange/Blue = RV
Pink = Second Stage Heat/Cool
Opposite of Needed RV color = Second Stage Heat Cool when needed.

This is our Guild Line, so we have a standard on our installed equipment, makes trouble shooting easy. Lucky for us we have been doing this from 1995 (color standards that is, not 8 wire) so we know our customers well.

/end rant

We use a very similar system. Except the RV is always orange and therefore blue usually becomes Y2 for us and we often use brown for W2.

[ironpit]

I can't remember but it seems like I put in a Bard, that used like 12 conductors, some years ago. I like the pretty colors! Sometimes I feel like a phone lineman, with all the different colors.