EAC with media filter?

[deltatee]

I am an HVAC/R contractor but lack knowledge in IAQ issues, so I'm hoping you great guys can help me out. Here's the problem; I smoke and my wife nags constantly. I am redecorating the family room and and only now see all the nicotine stains and crud that my smoking causes. (It's quite disgusting, but NO, I'm not ready to quit smoking!) I have a Honeywell 20x25x4 media filter coupled to Heil 90+ 2 stage, variable blower furnace with twin lamp UV downstream from A/C coil. I am thinking of putting in an electronic air cleaner. Here are the questions:
1) Should the EAC be up stream or down stream from the filter?
2) Should I discard or keep the media filter with an EAC?
3) What is the best EAC?
4) What CFM should blower be set to on manual fan for best efficiency?
Thanks in advance for your help 'cos I can't take the nagging anymore! (Replies suggesting getting rid of the wife need not be posted;- it is not financially viable!)

[Special Ed]

I recommend the Dynamic EAC. Remove the Honeywell filter & just use the Dynamic exclusively. No need to worry about adjusting the air flow at the AHU due to the outstanding design of the Dynamic.

[pcscott]

American standard is coming out withthe Accuclean system. supposedly it's super. Also saw a media and EAC in one box I,ll post when i get the name

[pcscott]

Sorry that single box system is UV and Media.And it's kind of pricey.

[drcustom]

How about the Aprilaire 5000? Hybrid between a media and an EAC. Got tons of em out there and no complaints to speak of (Actually more like a few dozen). Maintenance between them and the Honeywell is miles apart. Once/twice a year filter changes and a gingerly cleaning of the EAC components, definately done by professionals, is about it. Research Products dealt with a recent recall with impressive expediency, IMO. A responsible company and a solid product.

[cissado]

Do the Aprilaire 5000 make a zapping noise?

[mayguy]

I don't suggest the EAC itself, they are a pain to keep up.

Either stay with a good media filter, or upgrade to the April Aire 5000.

[tonys]

outstanding design of the Dynamic?

you must be kidding.

[Special Ed]

You think you could've designed something better or are you just being argumentative?

[tonys]

flat panel 1"?
face velocity equals duct velocity?

how do you trap particulate when you don't slow the air down across a larger surface area (via conventioanl pleated design)?

...figures these smoke-n-mirrors dudes can't produce any reasonable ASHRAE ratings.
figures.

[teddy bear]

A sad industry! Fresh air ventilation is the most important. Ventilate when occupied! You can not filter your way out. Best exhaust from smoking area. Do make-up on the air handler. If green grass climate, maintain <50%RH during wet time of the add. TB

[ductdoctor]

Personally, I have yet to see a EAC do the job right. Most EAC's are concentrating at a level of micron debris which is irrelevant to the consumer. If you truly wish to control the smoke out of your home, it has to be done with HEPA, since smoke is one of the smallest particles.

There is a product on the market with the name of Cimatec, it is electronic but it does have HEPA capabilities at a fraction of the cost. http://www.cimatec.com Media replacements are done 4 times a year on it, it is much better in a side by side comparison with Dynamic. The only issue I have with this product is the very very trace byproduct of ozone it produces. However slight or trace level, it is still there, although nowhere near the products such Ecoquest or such garbage such as that.

However, true HEPA filtration is done with a product by the name of IQ Air. The only one partnered with the American Lung Association. The only one we recommend to our customers for a whole house system or room units.

[deltatee]

Hey guys, thanks for all your replies. I will research this a bit more deeply. The Cimatec might be a good candidate. I was tempted to buy a Honeywell F300E today but thought I should read all your posts first. Glad I did. Unfortunately there seems to be little agreement between you as to best solution. Yes, exhaust and make up air would be best, but I don't want to heat the New Jersey atmosphere thanks.Depending on the price, I will probably try the Cimatec and see how well it works (if the nagging reduces it is working!)I will post the results. Thanks again.

[cissado]

Ductdoctor, great call on the IQ Air purifier. I've seen it on Extreme home makeover and looked at it online, it's amazing. Leaps and bounds better than anything else out there (from a technical standpoint, at least). Remember this is coming from a nonprofessional, please don't take my words too seriously. I would consider using it but may go another HEPA route as I've started the process already. I'm sure it's very costly as well but worth the price IMO.

Do you know if the cimatec filters have less or more pressure drop than the Filtrete brand that I currently use. They are the Filtrete 1250 and are considered the highest one inch filters available but I've been told they are ery restrictive. I may switch to the cimatec if they are less restrictive.

[ductdoctor]

On the Cimatec website, they actually list their filters at a 15% reduction vs. a standard pleated. The savings based on a $1400.00 heating and air bill would be $210.00 at this rate per annum. I could list more about the rate of reduction but their website is very informative in this matter.
Thank you for the reply.

3m filters are very restrictive, in fact their ultra allergan is listed as a MERV11. But thats not the hardest part of them, after they are in place for approximately 30 days or so, the Merv raises up to almost Merv 16/17. Only a qualified technition in your home can tell you what your furnace can handle but that is normally too much for most systems in place. They do work well, however, with the merv what it is, it is very restrictive. Excess restriction will not only cause a/c coils to freeze, but will also cause premature failure of the heat exchanger and this can happen with a 1" pleated filter as well as any electrostatic filter.


[Edited by ductdoctor on 02-24-2006 at 05:50 PM]

[Special Ed]

Originally posted by ductdoctor
http://www.cimatec.com[/url] Media replacements are done 4 times a year on it, it is much better in a side by side comparison with Dynamic.

It looks similar in design to Dynamic. Probably works off of the same principles.

And for those of you that think "fresh air only" is the cure-all to all of our IAQ needs, I can agree to an extent. You still gotta somehow keep that coil clean, & a fresh-air intake isn't gonna do that. And neither is a throw-away "blue" filter.

And now for tonys who just loooooooooooves that pleated filter....

A pleated filter, by its very design increases SP on the blower. Not only that, but also it's made (essentially) of paper with little pin-holes in it to allow air to pass through. Sure, it catches a lot of stuff but so would a solid piece of cardboard if it was stuck in the filter rack. In addition to the above "paper" also seems to promote mold growth if & when it gets wet.

Obviously, there are many opinions on the subject of filtration, & none of us are entirely correct. In fact, I don't think even IAQ products mfg.'s know everything about this subject.

[vacdaddyt]

deltatee
I worked the past three years in a casino and the smoke does create a lot of problems. We used pleated filters backed up with HEPA,the thing is we couldn't run longer than two months before system capacity went down.We were using charcoal filters in some of the units which did not have the HEPAs in but I think this was mostly for odor.I'm not sure how they work with smoke.The other posters on the site are correct about getting too much filter on the system, some can handle it others cannot.Most of the EAC's I have worked with have a prescreen built in. I think that if a standard filter gets wet it will not stand up, but if thats the case there is bigger problems going on than its durability.Point is filters need to be changed as often as neccesary, the more restrictive the more often.I like the discussions started here as I have moved on into HVAC education field, but I am finding there is a lot to learn. When you are maint tech you are not keeping up with the technology around you.

[ductdoctor]

I have one suggestion for any customers out there about smoke and odor control, well I have many but one very important one. NEVER use ozone to clean the air. There are many new products/older too from many companies using ozone to clean the air. Please do not buy these products, companies such as ECOQUEST push these hard and they do not work. Ozone can be used by professionals with specialized equipment in certain situations, but not by homweowners in the air cleaner format. Ecoqeust pushes friends and family sales by their sales staff and touts big money in the pockets of their salesmen. Ecoquest units do not work, they have been in court over it, had to change their name over it and once you do the research into their units, they do not work.

Just a little FYI.. I could go on for a much longer post but just trust me that Ive done my homework on this.

[dash]

Originally posted by ductdoctor
I have one suggestion for any customers out there about smoke and odor control, well I have many but one very important one. NEVER use ozone to clean the air. There are many new products/older too from many companies using ozone to clean the air. Please do not buy these products, companies such as ECOQUEST push these hard and they do not work. Ozone can be used by professionals with specialized equipment in certain situations, but not by homweowners in the air cleaner format. Ecoqeust pushes friends and family sales by their sales staff and touts big money in the pockets of their salesmen. Ecoquest units do not work, they have been in court over it, had to change their name over it and once you do the research into their units, they do not work.

Just a little FYI.. I could go on for a much longer post but just trust me that Ive done my homework on this.



Ductdoctor,

I see you clean ducts and dryer vents.


Take a look here you may find homes that need these http://www.dryer-ell.com/

[Special Ed]

Who's EcoQuest?

[ductdoctor]

Take a look at ecoquest.com to see who they are. Something you will runito the more home you go into. You will also notice the tell tale sign of these untis when you walk into a home and have a clorine pool smell hit you like a truck. VERY BAD UNITS. Ozone is a eye, ear, nose, throat and of course lung irritant and the results are the severe inflamation of the cavaties as such. They push them as air cleaners but they dont work.

[cem-bsee]

why don' you just quit smoking? talk to my ex - at 69 she discovered she had lost 40% of oxygen converting capability, with therphy got that to just 20% -- BUT it is permanent! she smoked for 35y "could quit at anytime" but it took her 2 severe bouts with respitory broncitis about 15months apart before she really quit --

why don't you just go into the garage to smoke?
the ex did -- helped me & rest of family --

[tonys]

Originally posted by Special Ed

Originally posted by ductdoctor
http://www.cimatec.com[/url] Media replacements are done 4 times a year on it, it is much better in a side by side comparison with Dynamic.

It looks similar in design to Dynamic. Probably works off of the same principles.

And for those of you that think "fresh air only" is the cure-all to all of our IAQ needs, I can agree to an extent. You still gotta somehow keep that coil clean, & a fresh-air intake isn't gonna do that. And neither is a throw-away "blue" filter.

And now for tonys who just loooooooooooves that pleated filter....

A pleated filter, by its very design increases SP on the blower. Not only that, but also it's made (essentially) of paper with little pin-holes in it to allow air to pass through. Sure, it catches a lot of stuff but so would a solid piece of cardboard if it was stuck in the filter rack. In addition to the above "paper" also seems to promote mold growth if & when it gets wet.

Obviously, there are many opinions on the subject of filtration, & none of us are entirely correct. In fact, I don't think even IAQ products mfg.'s know everything about this subject.

1) anything in the airstream 'increases' the SP losses (what's your point)
2) a pleat design increases effective surface area - distributing the vol. flow over a greater area (is there a debate here?)
3) what paper pleat filter have you used? last time I checked, a GOOD pleated filter is made of the same glass fiber materials as the flat panel variety (check it out if you are not sure).
4) solid piece of cardboard? where is that analogy coming from? folks without physical test data (under controlled ASHRAE test conditions) tend to go off on a tangent with comparisons that just don't help the HVAC contractor (nor the end user)
5) yes, manufacturer's (many of them) tend to be more 'vacuum salesmen' than technically competent (just an observation)

hmmmmm.