Going from 6 seer to 10 seer AC--but it's a Goodman

[iowaguy]

I have an AC that was installed in the late 1960s and was told by a contractor that it was probably 6 seer.

Even though it was 6 seer I was very satisfied with its performance. It doesn't take much to cool my home. My highest cooling bill in my hottest month (August) was $25.

I'm looking to get it replaced and the lowest price estimate (for the airhandler and condenser labor/materials) was $xxxx--for a Goodman 10seer.

The price estimate (for the airhandler and condenser labor/materials) was $xxxx--for a Trane 10 seer.



----------------
Is see that Goodman has really been bashed in http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=95897
but I'm looking for any redeeming value in Goodman...besides price.

[b]Please read the rules [b]
Forum Rules (http://hvac-talk.Com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=1241)

[Edited by Mod3 on 02-03-2006 at 12:46 PM]

[Wild Leg]

Brand name has little or nothing to do with it.

It's the installer and installation that really matters.


A 10 SEER anything will boast "Mature technology".
Nothing cutting edge or the least bit risky.
Nothing particularly noteworthy, one way or another.
Ho-hum, another very boring, non-descript air conditioner.

They won't outlast any other, nor die any younger.

If you don't like the brand, pick a different one.

Please remember, when you go with the lowest bid, you risk the worst install. GET REFERENCES!

It's not about the equipment.
It's the experience.

$25 bucks a month? Why bother?

[turtle]

Originally posted by iowaguy
I have an AC that was installed in the late 1960s and was told by a contractor that it was probably 6 seer.

Even though it was 6 seer I was very satisfied with its performance. It doesn't take much to cool my home. My highest cooling bill in my hottest month (August) was $25.

I'm looking to get it replaced and the lowest price estimate (for the airhandler and condenser labor/materials) was $xxxx--for a Goodman 10seer.

The price estimate (for the airhandler and condenser labor/materials) was $xxxx--for a Trane 10 seer.

This is Turtle.

The equipment that your putting in and it only being air handler and condenser unit. The Brand means nothing to me but the big thing here is Who's put the equipment in. The installer is the key to a good running system and brand is for advertisement for you to know what brand your are suppose to buy. Any person getting in a brand bashing trip is on a personal thought trip. I like Chevy , you like Ford, and bill likes Dodge.

Good advertisement makes a difference in the brands.

TURTLE

>>>edit... fixed post


[Edited by jultzya on 02-08-2006 at 12:38 AM]

[BaldLoonie]

Only reason to swap is that the old one will probably die on the hottest day next year. Plus you better grab one of those 10 SEERs while you still can. You sure can't get a payback on a 13! What part of the fine Hawkeye State are you in?

[pstu]

>>My highest cooling bill in my hottest month (August) was $25.

Good lord man! If I had that situation, I would resist doing ANYTHING until absolutely necessary. What are the odds it will ever be this good again???

What would you expect to gain by replacing any part of this system? The fact your old one has lasted 25 years, argues strongly that it is already reliable, and likely to be just as reliable as a new one would be. Do you have any comfort complaints or any other reason to want to change?

That contractor who said it was "about 6 SEER" may or may not have reliable info. I would be willing to bet that if you DO install a new system, it will *not* save you 40% of that $25 summer bill. A common error during the install could leave you with one or another problem which makes you regret changing (in my region it would likely be humidity problems).

I am a homeowner who has been studying this subject for a couple years. Although I am personally about ready to say yes to a top-of-the-line 18 SEER Trane, I am using 1800-2500 KWH in each of four summer months and paying worse than 15 cents/kwh for the privilege. What makes sense for me, would seem to make no sense for someone in your low-usage position. If I were in your situation, it would take a warrant to make me change it.

Best of luck -- Pstu

[iowaguy]

Originally posted by bwal2
It's the experience.

$25 bucks a month? Why bother?
[/B]

My present A/C has a leak somewhere.

[player89]

We have a 27 year old Carrier HP that is doing great so far. Still heating and cooling in southern Illinois. A/C in the summer adds about $60 to monthly bill, heat in winter about the same.

Think I'll run it until it dies. Even if I had to get a motel for a week if it cratered in the hottest day of summer, I still think I would be ahead. If it cratered in the winter, I have my gas heat to fall back on.

Think we'll run it until it dies!

[Wild Leg]

Originally posted by iowaguy

Originally posted by bwal2
It's the experience.

$25 bucks a month? Why bother?


My present A/C has a leak somewhere. [/B]

Now it makes sense. :D

[iowaguy]

Originally posted by BaldLoonie
What part of the fine Hawkeye State are you in?

Central Iowa...near Ames.

[frank shelley]

Not a Goodman Dlr but svc many many many of them. The new Goodman condensers...copeland compressor, decent cabinet, contactor and filter drier, great customer warranty, whats not to like? Time will tell about the coil durability itself but then what manufacturer hasn't had some kind of coil issue in the past?

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by turtle
I like Chevy , you like Ford, and bill likes Dodge.

Good advertisement makes a difference in the brands.

TURTLE

who's bill?

[Chill]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by turtle
I like Chevy , you like Ford, and bill likes Dodge.

Good advertisement makes a difference in the brands.

TURTLE

who's bill?

Bill's the one that bought that durango with the bad ball joints.

[mathwei]

Don't be turned away by brand bashing, as long as you find a reputable installer, you shouldn't have any major problems with any equipment. Service is the main worry for any owner.

Not to mention, it's a 10 SEER unit, pretty basic. Only three manufacturers of compressors, and the rest of the inside is basic guts, condenser fan motor, contactor, capacitors.

[jmatl]

Why spend the money on an obsolete unit (10-SEER)?
Upgrade now to the 13-SEER.

[BaldLoonie]

Let's see. If your financial planner came to you and said, give me $600 and I'll give you $20 a year in return until you die or move, you'd tell him what a horrible investment that was. Well, in his case, that's what you are suggesting. In many areas, like ours & his, there is NO reasonable payback for 13 SEER. That's why we stocked up on 10s. Not everyone wants to spend the big bucks for a expensive unit just to get a little more warranty or a fancier cabinet etc. either.

[iowaguy]

Originally posted by jmatl
Why spend the money on an obsolete unit (10-SEER)?
Upgrade now to the 13-SEER.

I live under a bunch of trees that really shade my house. So my highest cooling bill is $25. They typically average about $10/month. I don't think the higher price of a 13SEER would EVER pay for itself in my situation.

Sadly, I can't seem to talk a contractor into putting a 10SEER in. They keep telling me how much more a 13-15SEER will be. I can't seem to get the point across to them that I BARELY use AC to keep my house at 73 degrees in the summer.

[pstu]

Iowaguy, if I were you I would try *very* hard to repair what is already installed. Freon leaks are not impossible to find, your posts sound like one leak is reason to replace the system. You have (had) a good thing going with the old system and if your baseline is $25/mo, it won't get any better than that. I would suggest paying half the price of a new system, to fix a problem in your old one, is not a bad trade.

Best of luck -- Pstu

[corny]

The older I get the more I keep hoping to one day find a nice standing pilot furnace...new in the box.... Id rather have simple, relaible and easy to repair than something that is prone to tearing up with the least spike in line voltage and when the fragile parts do go bad you have to wait days for them to be delivered.

Id take a non fatal bullet before Id have a dual compressor unit...or anything variable speed....but thats just me.

[dokktor]

Tell you what, I've installed/serviced many brands of A/C's, and Goodman is hard to beat. When I get ready to change out my A/C I won't even hesitate to buy Goodman. At the same point when you're talking about 10 seer there really isn't a bit of difference in any of the units, except for the quality control in manufacturing of that unit. Just as others have stated- installation is very important, make sure your installer will stand behind his work and product.

[frank shelley]

Your right Loonie. I have one of the very few higher seer systems at my house around here but it's a house that loves to chew the utilities so it works for me.

Doing bids on 1000 sq ft apts with 13 seers is just about like sticker shock to these bldgers and homeowners and quite frankly I don't blame them. It will never pay them back. The other prob is the added 6-8" cased coil height
from what we we're using.

[mark 11]

How big is this house? $25 dollar electric bill to cool
your house, is this house located at the North pole?

[turtle]

Originally posted by iowaguy

Originally posted by jmatl
Why spend the money on an obsolete unit (10-SEER)?
Upgrade now to the 13-SEER.

I live under a bunch of trees that really shade my house. So my highest cooling bill is $25. They typically average about $10/month. I don't think the higher price of a 13SEER would EVER pay for itself in my situation.

Sadly, I can't seem to talk a contractor into putting a 10SEER in. They keep telling me how much more a 13-15SEER will be. I can't seem to get the point across to them that I BARELY use AC to keep my house at 73 degrees in the summer.

This is Turtle.

The 13 SEER does not have your name on it. Get a 10 SEER and buy you a new wide screen TV.

TURTLE

[kayumochi]

A google search will reveal that Goodman gets the worst marks from installers. Think the brand doesn't matter? Then feel free to enjoy the Goodman "experience."

[Swampfox]

Originally posted by kayumochi
A google search will reveal that Goodman gets the worst marks from installers. Think the brand doesn't matter? Then feel free to enjoy the Goodman "experience."

What search terms? or do you care to back that up with a link?

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by swampfox

Originally posted by kayumochi
A google search will reveal that Goodman gets the worst marks from installers. Think the brand doesn't matter? Then feel free to enjoy the Goodman "experience."

What search terms? or do you care to back that up with a link?

If it comes up on a google search, it must be accurate...right?

Well, I googled kayumochi and came up with this; http://www.justusboys.com/members/kayumochi/

[RoBoTeq]

Let me guess; kayumochi is american standard?

[frank shelley]

Robo I wish I could have seen you fall out of your chair ROTFL when you came up with that one!!

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by frank shelley
Robo I wish I could have seen you fall out of your chair ROTFL when you came up with that one!!

Especially since it was the first one I clicked on it was quite satisfying. Of course now I am probably on some homo list :D

[mathwei]

Originally posted by kayumochi
A google search will reveal that Goodman gets the worst marks from installers. Think the brand doesn't matter? Then feel free to enjoy the Goodman "experience."

Okay, guess what? GOOGLE search for just aboot anything and you'll find it, good or bad.

Examples, first link under Carrier Furnace in Google is...

Carrier (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1007/)

Goodman Furnace search lead to some consumer page, near the bottom of first search page, where it says they are keeping an eye on Goodman to see if repair problems get fixed. I suggest you do the same.

[kayumochi]

Someone else made the automobile analogy. I will continue it. Some people drive BMWs, others a Lexus. Then we have Fords and Chevys. While others are content with a Kia. A Goodman is the Kia of the HVAC world.

Then, of course, there are those who view HVAC as a commodity, but that is another story...

[Chill]

Originally posted by kayumochi
Someone else made the automobile analogy. I will continue it. Some people drive BMWs, others a Lexus. Then we have Fords and Chevys. While others are content with a Kia. A Goodman is the Kia of the HVAC world.

Then, of course, there are those who view HVAC as a commodity, but that is another story...

I don't understand your point. Are you suggesting the OP should consider the most expensive unit, when he hardly uses it.

I think a Goodman would be a good fit for this customer based on such little usage. Just don't have it installed in the middle of the driveway so everyone can see it.

[RoBoTeq]

There are no intelligent comparisons between cars and HVAC systems. These two entities are judged on completely different aspects and have no comparable values.

So we have yet another uninformed opinion by yet another unknown newbie.

Why do these brand bashing newbies never have anything constructive to add to this forum?

[kayumochi]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
There are no intelligent comparisons between cars and HVAC systems. These two entities are judged on completely different aspects and have no comparable values.



I agree, but as I said, someone else earlier in this thread used the automobile analogy so I simply played along.

Relax my friend.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by kayumochi


Relax my friend.

As long as you mean this in a strictly platonic way....I did read you bio ya know :D

[zzyzzx]

I agree with pstu. For as little as you use your A/C either fix it, or is using a window unit a possibility?

Are you sure that your $25/month figure is right?

[iowaguy]

Originally posted by zzyzzx
I agree with pstu. For as little as you use your A/C either fix it, or is using a window unit a possibility?

Are you sure that your $25/month figure is right?

The $25/month is closer to the maximum, than the average, that my utility bill went up (with my 30+ year old A/C) from the 3 months average that I don't have to use the heater or air condition to get the house to 70 to 72 degrees.

I did go to a 10 SEER this summer and my highest bill was $18 more than the 3 months that I don't have to use the heater or air condition to get the house to 70 to 72 degrees.

I don't think a window unit would have taken out enough of the humidity.

Happy holidays.

[mark beiser]

WOW, $25 for August???

Thats 3 days worth of my August bill, lol.

I'm starting to understand why people in some parts of the country cried about the 13 SEER minimum.

[iowaguy]

Cooling my house is no problem....heating it, on the other hand is where I pay much much much more.

[emcoasthvacr]

I have an old 1.5 ton heat pump in the Florida Panhandle that efficiently cools 1440 sf concrete block home and my cooling bills average $70/mo during Summer and $80 during the short Winter.

Proper installation, insulation, and load calcs are everything.






Originally posted by player89
We have a 27 year old Carrier HP that is doing great so far. Still heating and cooling in southern Illinois. A/C in the summer adds about $60 to monthly bill, heat in winter about the same.

Think I'll run it until it dies. Even if I had to get a motel for a week if it cratered in the hottest day of summer, I still think I would be ahead. If it cratered in the winter, I have my gas heat to fall back on.

Think we'll run it until it dies!

[rlj1117]

installer important but anyone can get goodman, bash me if you want but facts is facts

[emcoasthvacr]

I'm sure you got a good price on it since 13 SEER systems will be mandated soon.

Instead of mandating higher efficiency systems, the government should mandate ignorantly inefficient utility companies to become more efficient -- just ask any business or homeowner both in the NW hydroelectric region and in the NE where companies such as PECO cause homeowners to pay $600 & up per month.

In addition, homeowners need to be wise when purchasing a home & HVAC unit. For example, my next door neighbor has a new home with a 3 ton heat pump -- although our homes of similar size, his bill is over twice what I average -- how efficient is that???


Originally posted by iowaguy

Originally posted by zzyzzx
I agree with pstu. For as little as you use your A/C either fix it, or is using a window unit a possibility?

Are you sure that your $25/month figure is right?

The $25/month is closer to the maximum, than the average, that my utility bill went up (with my 30+ year old A/C) from the 3 months average that I don't have to use the heater or air condition to get the house to 70 to 72 degrees.

I did go to a 10 SEER this summer and my highest bill was $18 more than the 3 months that I don't have to use the heater or air condition to get the house to 70 to 72 degrees.

I don't think a window unit would have taken out enough of the humidity.

Happy holidays.

[Edited by emcoasthvacr on 12-02-2006 at 10:19 AM]

[pstu]

>>Instead of mandating higher efficiency systems, the government should mandate
>>ignorantly inefficient utility companies to become more efficient
>>-- just ask any business or homeowner both in the NW hydroelectric region
>>and in the NE where companies such as PECO cause homeowners to pay $600 & up per month.

Easy to say, hard to do. From the very beginning of regulation the utility commission (or its muni equivalent) has been charged with watching the utility and denying payment for wasteful actions. For example the rule used in many areas is equipment must be "used and useful" in order to get rates to pay for it. Every few years a big utility will get an audit done, they will find a few things, the utility will say thank you for pointing that out, we will go forth and sin no more, etc. It's not dramatic, it's more like an opera where you know how the script will play out in the end.

Would be much help if you could point to specific things a utility does wrong, or specific "good guy" utilities which do things better. I used to work for one in the Houston area and believe me I am not a fan of management. But they did go through several phases of trying to analyze "best practices" from other utilities and industries, spent a lot on consultants to advise them. Still their rates were among the higher around, yet people would compliment their customer service (before "de-regulation").

Based on far-away reputation, I would nominate Duke Energy as one of the better utilities. They have some advantage from burning lots of cheap coal, and from having done a good job engineering their nuclear plants (which keeps rates lower). Clearly some utilities are better than others, but I find they all look better when you are not up close.

>>In addition, homeowners need to be wise when purchasing a home & HVAC unit.
>>For example, my next door neighbor has a new home with a 3 ton heat pump --
>>although our homes of similar size, his bill is over twice what I average --
>>how efficient is that???

This might hit closer to home. If only you could describe ways in which a homeowner could tell what to choose. In this case I would hope you could point out what your neighbor is doing wrong, that could be done better. Of particular interest, is his problem fixable or inherent in the house?

Best wishes -- Pstu



[Edited by pstu on 12-02-2006 at 11:06 AM]

[texas cooler]

Most important is the installation quality. Check your quotes and compare exactly what you will get for what you will spend. Get references if possible. Do they have a before and after portfolio of past work. Pride in workmanship usually indicates a quality install.

Worked for an outfit where we spent most of our time replacing compressors on "name brand" units. Found out that the owner's son (who did most of the startups) thought pulling any vacuum at all was a waste of time. I think it interefered with his beer and majic mushroom time. Compressors were always in warranty but the labor to replace them was not. Gave a bad name to the equipment.

I think most equipment has had "issues" with one thing or another over the years although most of the brand names have larger research and test centers.

[emcoasthvacr]

I apprecitate your feedback Pstu :)

I would say regulating utilities is impossible, not hard -- Duke & Southern are cheap because they burn coal, but a lot of communities in the NW pay less than half of what coal-burning utilities like Duke & Southern customers pay.

PECO electric, Com Ed, and other utilities' customers were left paying ridiculous rates because of government mandated carryover cost from nuclear plant shutdowns in the 70's & early 80's; in other words, consumers were left paying (for decades to come) for the ignorant business decisions government & utilities made.

As far as efficiency, I did a current draw on the compressor during peak loads in August & September -- I found that my neighbor was utilizing 50-60% of the compressor capacity, and I was at 90-100% capacity. This can be attributed in part by local codes that mandate designs without the signature of an engineer.





Originally posted by pstu
>>Instead of mandating higher efficiency systems, the government should mandate
>>ignorantly inefficient utility companies to become more efficient
>>-- just ask any business or homeowner both in the NW hydroelectric region
>>and in the NE where companies such as PECO cause homeowners to pay $600 & up per month.

Easy to say, hard to do. From the very beginning of regulation the utility commission (or its muni equivalent) has been charged with watching the utility and denying payment for wasteful actions. For example the rule used in many areas is equipment must be "used and useful" in order to get rates to pay for it. Every few years a big utility will get an audit done, they will find a few things, the utility will say thank you for pointing that out, we will go forth and sin no more, etc. It's not dramatic, it's more like an opera where you know how the script will play out in the end.

Would be much help if you could point to specific things a utility does wrong, or specific "good guy" utilities which do things better. I used to work for one in the Houston area and believe me I am not a fan of management. But they did go through several phases of trying to analyze "best practices" from other utilities and industries, spent a lot on consultants to advise them. Still their rates were among the higher around, yet people would compliment their customer service (before "de-regulation").

Based on far-away reputation, I would nominate Duke Energy as one of the better utilities. They have some advantage from burning lots of cheap coal, and from having done a good job engineering their nuclear plants (which keeps rates lower). Clearly some utilities are better than others, but I find they all look better when you are not up close.

>>In addition, homeowners need to be wise when purchasing a home & HVAC unit.
>>For example, my next door neighbor has a new home with a 3 ton heat pump --
>>although our homes of similar size, his bill is over twice what I average --
>>how efficient is that???

This might hit closer to home. If only you could describe ways in which a homeowner could tell what to choose. In this case I would hope you could point out what your neighbor is doing wrong, that could be done better. Of particular interest, is his problem fixable or inherent in the house?

Best wishes -- Pstu



[Edited by pstu on 12-02-2006 at 11:06 AM]

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by rlj1117
installer important but anyone can get goodman, bash me if you want but facts is facts

Actually, the facts are that anyone can get any brand manufactured. In my region, Goodman is sold only to professionals in the trade unless contractors resell to others.

You haven't been on the forum very long but seem to have a real chip on your shoulder. Anything we can do to help?

[bing0]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
There are no intelligent comparisons between cars and HVAC systems. These two entities are judged on completely different aspects and have no comparable values.

So we have yet another uninformed opinion by yet another unknown newbie.

Why do these brand bashing newbies never have anything constructive to add to this forum?

Wow...!

Is it really o.k. for someone to be so rude and crass and also be on the membership committee here?

...any manufactured machine has tolerances and design quality equating to longevity and reliability.

I have a Toyota 4x4 truck that has never had a single problem...flawless... in over 80,000 miles. how many Ford or Chevy or Dodge owners can say that?

If people who consider themselves professionals (especially those who seem to act the most unprofessionally) want to bash the folks who come here (like me) without provocation, maybe this site should not be open for "amateurs" like me to post.

Bing0

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by bing0

I have a Toyota 4x4 truck that has never had a single problem...flawless... in over 80,000 miles. how many Ford or Chevy or Dodge owners can say that?



I can I have a 98 GMC not one single problem 121,000 :D

Robin rude? if you talked to the guy on the phone for one minute your attitude would change about him, I personally think it's rude to judge from cyberspace. :D

[bing0]

Originally posted by mrbillpro

Originally posted by bing0

I have a Toyota 4x4 truck that has never had a single problem...flawless... in over 80,000 miles. how many Ford or Chevy or Dodge owners can say that?



I can I have a 98 GMC not one single problem 121,000 :D

Robin rude? if you talked to the guy on the phone for one minute your attitude would change about him, I personally think it's rude to judge from cyberspace. :D

...maybe it is rude to judge someone from cyberspace.
But, this is not a telephone conversation and the transmitted attitude by Mr. Roboteq is, in my view, rude.
My opinion is not based on this thread only also.

Bing0

[stonefly]

Why do these brand bashing newbies never have anything constructive to add to this forum?
_______
maybe if you imply they are queer they will quit.___________

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by bing0

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
There are no intelligent comparisons between cars and HVAC systems. These two entities are judged on completely different aspects and have no comparable values.

So we have yet another uninformed opinion by yet another unknown newbie.

Why do these brand bashing newbies never have anything constructive to add to this forum?

Wow...!

Is it really o.k. for someone to be so rude and crass and also be on the membership committee here?

...any manufactured machine has tolerances and design quality equating to longevity and reliability.

I have a Toyota 4x4 truck that has never had a single problem...flawless... in over 80,000 miles. how many Ford or Chevy or Dodge owners can say that?

If people who consider themselves professionals (especially those who seem to act the most unprofessionally) want to bash the folks who come here (like me) without provocation, maybe this site should not be open for "amateurs" like me to post.

Bing0

I agree :D