Amana Ultron with Carrier FV4 okay?, other options?

[evildiesel]

My home is approx 3000sq ft split into an upstairs and downstairs zone that had two York propane furnaces 90+ with an undersized 2-ton York for upstairs and a 3-ton down with a 50gal electric water heater. I just finished intalling an EK-1 boiler with 40 gal indirect, 6 zones of radiant floor and 2 hydronic coils installed with Carrier FV4 air handlers. The heat works beautifully and silently. However I need to purchase two new 3-ton Condensers before the warm months arrive. I am looking at 2-stage, 410a units from Carrier, Amana and possibly Trane or Bryant. Carrier currently makes the 38tdb with piston compressor that Claims 18SEER, Amana has the Ultron RSG 16 with scroll compressor that claims 16SEER. I can get either for under 2k. However, Carrier is releasing a new unit in May, the 24ANA which is a 2 stage scroll compressor claiming up to 21 SEER. My rep who sold be the EK1 (and is a carrier dealer) says the Amana may not work well with the Carrier(which I dont know if I believe). Should I go with one or the other? Or wait for the newer Carrier? Is there a big difference between scroll and piston compressors? Any reccomendations or experience would be greatly appreciated by this homeowner.

[BaldLoonie]

When you get into these super SEER units, you need to stay with all matched stuff. It wouldn't be wise to mix brands. If you don't want to get the current Infinity products, then wait til the new goodies come out but I sure wouldn't suggest a mismatch.

[wyounger]

I see you're a mechanical junkie, so I'll give you the technical junk I know you want... as best I can. Try as I might, I am not actually an encyclopedia, so everyone please feel free to correct me or fill in what I've left out.

Most all the nice high-efficiency *single-speed* units use scroll compressors these days. People like them because 1) they don't need any start assist 2) they are very tolerant of pumping liquid/trash/etc. without self-destructing 3) they are relatively quiet, 4) no pulsation of refrigerant in the lines. All that said, reciprocating compressors can also be quiet and do the job perfectly fine. In nice equipment like you're considering, everything is quiet, regardless of the compressor setup.

There are three ways manufacturers are achieving two speed operation now.
1. Trane's top of the line. Just use two compressors in one unit. Capacity can step down from 100% to 50-60% (the exact level varies depending on exactly which size unit). Pros: Wide capacity steps. Cons: Complex, more stuff to break. Largely irrelevant for your question because nobody around here is going to suggest pairing one of these up with a Carrier air handler. (Incidentally, can these switch speeds on the fly, or do they have to stop first?)
2. Copeland scroll compressor (most common of the three methods). This is mostly like a regular scroll, except it can step down to low by changing where it releases the gas so that it doesn't travel through as much of the scroll area. Less pumping, less capacity (66% of high stage), less power consumption. Pros: Simple! Can switch stages on the fly. Cons: Low stage isn't all that different from high stage.
3. Bristol TS reciprocating compressor (York, Carrier). When rotating in one direction, it uses two pistons for full capacity. It can rotate in the opposite direction, though, and then it only runs one piston, so 50% capacity. Pros: 50/100% capacity steps with less components and cost than a twin compressor setup. Cons: No switching between speeds on the fly; must stop for ~1 minute before restarting in the opposite direction. Moderate complexity.

If you want two speeds to achieve the utmost in comfort, don't let me stand in the way of your buying the best. I am still perfectly happy with single speed equipment, though. I don't suggest mixing and matching brands; no reason to buy the best and then end up with a Frankenstein.

Availability of a lot of products is tight right now, because plants are switching over from old products to new products as part of the 13 SEER mandate, right when the industry was already facing record demand because of rising energy prices and hurricane damage repairs. There is nothing shabby about the TDB unit, though if you want to get super high SEER you need to order the special "037" unit instead of the usual "036" three ton.

Depending on your preferences, electric rates, and availability, I'd suggest you also consider the YDB heat pump. You'd have the to-die-for dual fuel setup there; first and second stages could be heat pump heating, with third stage being hydronic (the only kind of fossil fuel heat that can run in conjunction with a heat pump; furnaces and heat pumps are a one-at-a-time pairing). You can really get the most out of a heat pump when it can run continuously in cold weather, but that means your auxilary has to be able to run at the same time as the HP so it can make sure you stay at your desired temperature. A dual fueler like myself has to shut down his heat pump completely below the balance point and use the furnace exclusively at lower temps.

Which size FV4 air handlers do you have? There are model sizes called 002, 003, 005, and 006, and I believe *all* of them are approved for use in three ton applications. If you can get a TDB or YDB now, I see little reason to wait. The new models are nifty and all, but the operating cost difference isn't going to be that great.

P.S. And what's the fuel source for the new boiler?

[Edited by wyounger on 02-02-2006 at 06:27 PM]

[beenthere]

If your going to spend the money on a high seer unit, you should stay with matched equipment, so you get the seer.

[RoBoTeq]

It would be foolish to have mismatched equipment installed, especially when we are talking this efficiency and quality potential.

[airworx]

carrier and trane are top of the line. stay here.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by airworx
carrier and trane are top of the line. stay here.

Would you care to qualify this opinion with any sort of data?

[chillbilly]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by airworx
carrier and trane are top of the line. stay here.

Would you care to qualify this opinion with any sort of data?




You really expect data to accompany that?

[evildiesel]

I have the 005 FV4 models. And oil for fuel now. I can get it cheaper than most since we use large quantities where I work. I guess it doesnt make much sense to compare Amana to Carrier when they are the same price for me. (the Amana was actually a little more) I guess I was really interested in the difference between the Scroll and the Reciprocating. The scroll seems better but not neccessarily worth the wait and $$$?

[Edited by evildiesel on 02-03-2006 at 01:49 AM]

[evildiesel]

Out of curiosity, since I know nothing about them Will a heat pump be cheaper to run for heat than my EK-1? It seems to be using almost no oil and Im trying to cut back on electric costs, I get good #2 oil for under $2/gal.
Ballpark how much more would a heat pump be than a regular AC unit?

Thanks

[BaldLoonie]

What's your cost per kwh?

[docholiday]

there is virtually no way an oil furnace can cost less than a heat pump. Dont forget when figuring your oil you still have to run an electric motor (actually 2) so add that back in.

[airworx]

i was an amana dealer years back, and ive seen there product. and my opinion is carrier and trane are superior to anyone else. amana just follows the leader whatever carrier invents everybody follows. now if you sell amana and are not a carrier dealer then your opinion is probably like mine.

[wyounger]

We gotta have your cost per kwh, then one of us will estimate the operating cost of the heat pump compared to the oil-fired hydronic heat. I'm not a dealer so I can't really touch the price difference question, other than to say that mechanically there's very little difference between a heat pump and an air conditioner.

BTW, I'm going to be on the road for business, so it will probably be a week before I'll be back to run numbers for you. Hopefully someone else will chime in once you give us your electricity cost per kwh. From what I've seen, down to at least the teens in outdoor temp, the heat you get from a heat pump heat will be cheaper than fossil fuel heat, except in maybe southern California (and with gas rates rising that may start to be an open question). In colder weather the heat pump alone won't be enough heat, so the hydronic will still have to kick in some. Overall about 90% of the total heating provided would come from the heat pump, though, so you can guess what that would do to the oil consumption part of the equation.

[evildiesel]

lotta different kWh #'s on this bill, but the average to compare is 7.58 cents per kWh.

[jacob perkins]

Originally posted by evildiesel
lotta different kWh #'s on this bill, but the average to compare is 7.58 cents per kWh.

291 kilowatt/hours = 1 million btu
7.21 gallon heatnoil = 1 million btu

the kw/h is electric heat,
so heatpump will do about 2-3 times better than that.

[jacob perkins]

Originally posted by evildiesel
propane furnaces

10.9 gallon propane = 1 million btu

And,tell your source you heard that Goodman was best.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by airworx
i was an amana dealer years back, and ive seen there product. and my opinion is carrier and trane are superior to anyone else. amana just follows the leader whatever carrier invents everybody follows. now if you sell amana and are not a carrier dealer then your opinion is probably like mine.

Again; absolutely useless opinion based on no data.

Do you know what an HTM is?

Do you know what a dual sized tubular heat exchanger is?

Any idea what brand exclusively meets the current DOE tax credit regulations in all sizes of furnaces?

No? Didn't think so.

[davidr]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq


Do you know what an HTM is?

Do you know what a dual sized tubular heat exchanger is?



I would like to forget the HTM's, but their tubular heat exchangers are great.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by davidr

Originally posted by RoBoTeq


Do you know what an HTM is?

Do you know what a dual sized tubular heat exchanger is?



I would like to forget the HTM's, but their tubular heat exchangers are great.

I was introduced to the HTM's after they had been taken out of production. Since these systems were not being manufactured when Goodman bought Amana, I inherited any issues with them with little or no support about them.

After doing an extensive research and self training on these systems I came to the conclusion that the HTMs were the most innovative thing to hit the HVAC market in years but was doomed because Amana insisted on keeping the information on these systems so exclusive.

Let's face it, these were the innovators of condensing type of furnaces. When it comes to the phrase; "it ain't rocket science!", the HTMs proved those saying this to be wrong. HTM technology came from the declassification of cooling rockets.

[davidr]

Do you have access to any HTM manuals Robin?

They were truly ahead of their time might be why we seem to inherit the ones that are left out there. :D

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by davidr
Do you have access to any HTM manuals Robin?

They were truly ahead of their time might be why we seem to inherit the ones that are left out there. :D

I have given all of my old manuals to my replacement, but I believe there is still some info available on line. I will see if I can get you a link.

[davidr]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

I have given all of my old manuals to my replacement, but I believe there is still some info available on line. I will see if I can get you a link.

That won't be necessary Robin, I appreciate the willingness to help with a link though.
I have 2 - 3" think binders with HTM information, just had some trouble tracking down a parts list last time I needed one.

Sorry to the OP for hijacking his thread.

[wyounger]

OK, I'm back from my trip, and I've promised to do an operating cost comparison for heating. These are rather complicated with heat pumps because their output is dependent on outdoor temperature.

I just realized we haven't established your Manual J heat loss. I'll have to just some wild guesses for illustration. This will also be further complicated by the two-systems two-floors issue. I will ignore the upstairs for now and just do numbers for the downstairs.

Assumptions:
Equipment possibilities: EK-1 boiler, hydronic heat (either as primary or backup), 87% efficiency (ignoring pumping and piping losses)
Carrier 38YXA036 heat pump with existing FV4xxx005 air handler (source of efficiency numbers)
Electric- flat 7.58c/kwh rate
Oil- 138,700 BTU/gallon
Ground Floor heat loss- hmm. Well, if you need three tons of cooling, let's assume you need 50% more than that for heating, so 54,000 BTU at a design temp of 5 degrees. No heat needed when temps are above 65 degrees.

**Estimating/rating point 1: 47 degrees ambient
Guesstimated ground floor heat loss: 16,200 BTU
-Oil heat alone: 16,200 BTU/138700 BTU/87% = 0.134 gallons, or 24 cents at $1.80.
-Heat pump heat alone (this would be above the balance point): 16,200 BTU / 3413 BTU/kw / 3.82 COP = 1.24 kwh, or 9.4 cents.

**Estimating/rating point 2: 32 degrees ambient
Guesstimated ground floor heat loss: 29,700 BTU
-Oil heat alone: 29,700 BTU/138700 BTU/87% = 0.246 gallons, or 44 cents at $1.80.
-Heat pump heat (slightly below balance point):
From the HP directly, 25000 BTU / 3413 BTU/kw / 3.27 COP = 2.24 kwh, or 16.9 cents. PLUS a little additional heat that the boiler will provide- 4,700 BTU/138700 BTU/87% = 0.039 gallons, or 7 cents at $1.80, so the total is 23.9 cents.

**Estimating/rating point 3: 17 degrees ambient
Guesstimated ground floor heat loss: 43,200 BTU
-Oil heat alone: 43,200 BTU/138700 BTU/87% = 0.358 gallons, or 64 cents at $1.80.
-Heat pump heat (below balance point):
From the HP directly, 22,400 BTU / 3413 BTU/kw / 2.74 COP = 2.4 kwh, or 18.2 cents. PLUS a the additional heat that the boiler will provide- 20,800 BTU/138700 BTU/87% = 0.172 gallons, or 31 cents at $1.80, so the total is 49.2 cents.

So what we've established is that, given all my crazy wild-guess assumptions, a heat pump in conjunction with your oil-hydronic setup can heat your downstairs for 40% the cost of oil alone at 47 degrees ambient. When you get down to 17 degrees, that gap closes down to doing the same job for 77% of the same price. I don't know how to integrate that information with weather bin data, but we can safely assume that your average winter temperature is 32 degrees or higher, so your typical heating cost with the heat pump in this system will be about 55% the cost of doing it with oil alone. That number will be even better in the spring and fall, when the you'll generally be at conditions more like Case 1.

The numbers for a second floor would be even better, because the second floor generally will have less heat loss than the first floor. That will work out to mean that the heat pump will almost always be able to do the job without any assistance from the boiler.