Ruud Mod vs. Bryant 2-stage, Contractor 1 vs. 2

[jeff-4]

I am throwing this question out to this forum. (Thanks in advance!)

I live in Minnesota (I can give more detials on the size of house, etc., if this is relevant). I am in the process of getting bids to replace furnace and AC. Also an issue I'd like to address is a problem of keeping our basement warm in winter.

Contarctor 1: Fantastic referrals, very service-oriented, big company (75 years in business). Rep spent 2+ hours looking at system, looking at home (e.g., counting vents and returns on each floor), asking about concerns. Will do a heat calculation to confirm sizing. Proposed Bryant 90i (two-stage) with Puron AC (Model 550A, 13 SEER).

Contractor 2: Small company (but over 20 years old), very low-key (perhaps because sales rep was on vacation, so a service tech came out). Rep quickly looked at existing furnace and AC, proposed replacing with same rated units, was through in under 30 minutes. Will bid a Ruud Modulating 90+ (and will also price the 2-stage at my request) and an R-22, 13-SEER AC unit (said he didn't trust the Puron units and that there would be no problems servicing R-22 into the future).

As an engineer, I am enthralled with the modulating furnace. Seems perfect fo the frigid north. However, Contractor 1 (Bryant) seems to be willing to make sure they do everything right. Everyone says the installation is more imprtant than the unit... Also concerned about R-22 AC; would a repair 15 years out be insanely expensive?

Please, your opinions. Go with one of these? Get more bids? Thanks, again!

[RoBoTeq]

Simply put; there is no actual comparison to the Rheem/Ruud modulating furnace. It is in a catagory all by itself.

That does not make it a worth the cost benefit in all situations however. I like to refer to the mod as a freak of the industry, because it is not a furnace that I have a comparable model to do battle against :D But again; just because the mod has specific advantages does not mean it is going to be a noticeable difference in comfort.

The other issue is that the mod furnace must be installed in a very particular manner and must use the fuzzy logic thermostat and controls in order to make it at all beneficial. I have seen and heard of more mods installed in a way that they are no more beneficial than a single or two stage furnace then those that are properly installed and set up.

For extreme comfort in a home with problematic thermal/stratification issues, nothing on the market can compare to a properly installed and set up mod furnace.

As for the service tech rather then a sales rep doing the quote; I have more confidence in the guy who has to work on equipment then the guy whose only connection to the equipment is his commision check.

[rasmussen6880]

It’s hard to say what the future will bring. The equipment manufactures are not making the stuff with r-22 in it. Doesn’t mean there won’t be r-22 to put in it. I personally would get at least one more bid, for similar equipment. Then decide on which company will do the best job for a fair price. My company is usually the highest priced company out but we sell more jobs a year than competitors on quality of work, service after the sale, reliability.

[BaldLoonie]

R22 equipment can be made until 2010. That's 4 long years, so yes, equipment manufacturers ARE making goodies with R22 in it. R22 will be available new until 2020 and longer in recovered form plus there are new gases that work in place of R22 out now. One has a newer version coming soon, don't know the details.

If I were doing it, I'd go R22 myself.

As for sizing, looks like neither did any heat gain/loss calc. Counting registers doesn't tell much.

[jeff-4]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
But again; just because the mod has specific advantages does not mean it is going to be a noticeable difference in comfort.

The other issue is that the mod furnace must be installed in a very particular manner and must use the fuzzy logic thermostat and controls in order to make it at all beneficial. I have seen and heard of more mods installed in a way that they are no more beneficial than a single or two stage furnace then those that are properly installed and set up.

So how do I assess whether this company can set up this great piece of equipment properly? Call the owner and grill him with any particular questions?

I could call another Ruud or Rheem contractor for another bid, but it is hard to know whom to call...

[jpb2]

As robo says go fot the best folks to install it !!!! My mod will only do as well as it is installed. His goodman can do better if set up right

[RoBoTeq]

With the mod, and there are others here who are more up on this furnace then I am now, I would ask if the thermostat that is required for full modulating efficiency is being quoted as well as subtleties like; Where in the duct will you be locating the "leaving air sensor". Questions like these will let the quoting contractor know you are learning about this system and will require it be installed properly.

The other side of this issue is this; will you noticeably benefit from a mod furnace or do you just want the neat technology? If the latter, I can understand and appreciate :D

[airworx]

contractor #2 inexperienced. most of your advanced contractors have already moved toward r410 systems. also contactor #2 will be the first to down grade every engineered advancement in a/c mostly becuase most residential companys like simplicity over and above anything else. they will tell you r410 a is no good, zoning system are not very reliable and so forth which are false statements.
bryant system is a better quality system than ruud. i would go back to contractor 1 and get him to bid you modulating furnace which is probably better known as a variable speed gas furnace.

[jeff-4]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
The other side of this issue is this; will you noticeably benefit from a mod furnace or do you just want the neat technology? If the latter, I can understand and appreciate :D

Of course, I am enamored with the technology, but I do think my home will benefit. We have a two-story with a finished, walk-out basement. The vents in the basement run through the slab, under the floor (transit heating?). Even if we run the fan continuously, the basement stays 5-10 degrees cooler. One theory is that the furnace on-off cycle is too short to heat up the vent run under the slab, so not enough heat is delivered. Under these conditions, the modulating furnace should benefit comfort. Do you agree?

P.S. I'd rather solve this problem simply and inexpensively, rather than, say, retrofitting a zone system or installing a separate furnace for the basement.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll get a list of questions together to ask about the install. Since you seem to be a Rheem/Ruud guy, what do you think of the AC choice? I see they do make the new AC units with R-410A.

[Edited by jeff-4 on 01-28-2006 at 05:44 PM]

[jeff-4]

Originally posted by airworx
bryant system is a better quality system than ruud. i would go back to contractor 1 and get him to bid you modulating furnace which is probably better known as a variable speed gas furnace.

Thanks for your opinion! The Bryant unit is their top-of-the-line, variable fan furnace but only two-stage heating, not fully modulating.

I'd really like to hear a Bryant person tout their product's advantages...

[mnhunter]

What is the difference between a fully modulating furnace a variable speed, two stage furnace?

[RoBoTeq]

Jeff, from what you are describing as to the conditions of your home, I agree that the mod furnace...properly set up with the proper thermostat...will benefit you from a comfort standpoint.

I used to rep Rheem/Ruud but have been repping for another brand for the past six years. I was on board with Rheem/Ruud as a contractor when the mod was first made available and installed the first one in Maryland. I think it is a great furnace (for a freak :D ) and the closest thing to a perfect furnace in that it will operate at the lowest possible heat and blower speed nearly constantly to keep your home comfy without having to cycle on and off.

As for the Bryant comments, I have nothing against Bryant, but not only is Bryant no better then any other comparable furnace on the market, Bryand has nothing to compare with the Rheem/Ruud mod. Then there is the matter of Bryant still using the clam shell heat exchanger.

[BaldLoonie]

This chart shows the heat loss of the house as it gets colder out. It also shows the output of a 2 stage furnace, in this case a Bryant/Carrier 355/MVP. The 3rd line shows the output of a Mod going from 40% when it will cycle to 100% on the coldest day. The output of the Mod nearly perfectly follows the needs of the house. No feeling warm as the furnace runs and cold when it cycles off. Just perfect, steady warmth, like a car heater can do. Only this is automatic.

I'm not afraid of R410a, like many I am used to R22 and see no reason at this point not to stay with it. Rheem/Ruud certainly has R410a machines available if someone desires. Most brands still have many more R22 units out.

http://www.johnmills.net/ht/modchart.jpg

[mayguy]

How big is your home? What BTU was quoted to you on both brands?

I'd go with the Mod, hands down.. They are the best equipement out there, and no one else in the forced air can match the comfort.

You can down load a home owner's version of the loac calc (red tab on top of screen) for $50.

With the mod running steady and slow, it will help with your basement set up.

I would put a mod in my home if there was a Rheem/Ruud dealer in my area. so I went with a Trane XV90 instead.

[jeff-4]

Originally posted by mayguy
How big is your home? What BTU was quoted to you on both brands?

I'd go with the Mod, hands down.. They are the best equipement out there, and no one else in the forced air can match the comfort.

You can down load a home owner's version of the loac calc (red tab on top of screen) for $50.

With the mod running steady and slow, it will help with your basement set up.

I would put a mod in my home if there was a Rheem/Ruud dealer in my area. so I went with a Trane XV90 instead.

Thanks for all of the posts on my questions. They are very helpful!

I am concerned about sizing, so I tried some of my own sizing calcs. I own a Mac (see, I am enamored by technology), which makes used of HVAC-Calc a bit problematic. So, I tried a shareware program called Easy A/C 2.0. Here are some of the inputs for my home (sorry about the length of this post!).

Floorspace
Basement: 1233 sq. ft. (carpeted, I think slab is insulated for transit heat)
Floor 1: 1232 sq. ft.
Floor 2: 720 sq. ft.

Window area (all windows casement, double-paned, low-e, argon filled)
North: 20 sq. ft.
South: 22 sq. ft.
East-West: 217 sq. ft.

Perimeter walls (8 ft ceilings)
Basement: 149 ft. (about 1/2 below grade)
Floor 1: 149 ft.
Floor 2: 109 ft.

3 exterior doors, metal, insulated w/storms (excluding 2 French doors that are counted as windows above)
6.5' x (32", 36", 36")

2x6 construction, R-19 Walls (Basement wall insulated, 2x4, R-11?)
10" fiberglass insulation, R-30 Attic

25 degreee AC design delta temp (95-100 F is usually our max temp in summer; we keep the stat at 76)
95 degreee AC design delta temp (-25 F is usually attained in our winters, but not this one, yet... We keep the stat at 68 day/55 night.)

4 people living in house.

So, with all this, the program calculated 2.6 tons AC and 60350 BTU heating (assuming I input these parameters correctly, which may be a big assumption! There was a part of the program for Floor, Basement, and Slab inputs that was confusing and could have a big impact on the calculations... Hey, do you want to check the answer for me using HVAC-Calc? ;) ). The current AC is 3 tons; current furnace is 80,000 BTU (stated 97% efficiency on furnace). Both bids use 3 tons AC. The Bryant bid is for an 80,000 BTU unit, while the Ruud Modulating furnace is 70,000.

Whew! Thanks for your patience!

P.S. I was up for a late-night snack to edit this post. (Hey, I'm an engineer and I'm anal.) Drives my wife crazy. Below is specific calculation output:

Design TD Cooling 25 Degrees Heat 95 Degrees

Windows 17914 BTU's 22533 BTU's

Doors 258.98 BTU's 2364.6 BTU's

Walls 3082.62 BTU's 12025.65 BTU's

Ceiling &
Floors 4068.9 BTU's 16522.2 BTU's

InFiltration &
Ventilation 1775.52 BTU's 6904.8 BTU's

Internal/
Duct Gain 2400 BTU's 0 BTU's

Latent 2082.6368 BTU's

Relative Humidity 55 %

Total 31582.6568 BTU's / 2.6318881 Tons Heat 60350.25 BTU's

[Edited by jeff-4 on 01-29-2006 at 03:33 AM]

[mayguy]

Wow, you were up late for the "Midnight snack".. Anyway, I own a Mac now, so I am unable to use the HVAC Calc anymore :-(

Anyway, I was thinking you may need 3 tons cooling, and 60,000 heat, and you figures shows what you need.


With your current system. did it do well with the heating of the cold snap we had last year. (Where is it this year? LOL odd winter we are having), and A/C kept up with the warm summer we had last year?

[jeff-4]

Originally posted by mayguy
Wow, you were up late for the "Midnight snack".. Anyway, I own a Mac now, so I am unable to use the HVAC Calc anymore :-(

Anyway, I was thinking you may need 3 tons cooling, and 60,000 heat, and you figures shows what you need.


With your current system. did it do well with the heating of the cold snap we had last year. (Where is it this year? LOL odd winter we are having), and A/C kept up with the warm summer we had last year?

We've never had any problems with either the heating or cooling system keeping up. I remember the cold snap of 1998?, when we hit -35 in the Twin Cities, and the furnace was running almost continuously (but house was fine). The only time the AC has not kept up was on a few hot days some years back when Excel Energy (formally NSP) was cycling our AC via their power saver switch. Then, the house fell off maybe 2 degrees from the setpoint over the day.

Anyhow, I feel reasonably comfortable with the sizing of these units. I just wish I could find a Rheem/Ruud dealer who would blow me away with their obvious technical expertise and level of service. I'm willing to pay for these attributes!

[BaldLoonie]

Looking at the Rheem & Ruud sites, there are plenty of dealers in the area. None looked familiar to me but I left there 15 years ago and didn't know many small ones. Can't help but think one of them will impress you. The friend I worked for way back when sold Ruud but he's out of it now.

[jeff-4]

Originally, I called one outfit on a Friday afternoon. They promised to call me back on Monday but did not (in fact, haven't heard a peep from them). Maybe I'm too sensitive, but this really annoyed me :mad:! After all, I explaned that I needed my whole system replaced, so I'd think they be right after me for such a large job.

Of course, the secretary might have misplaced the slip, etc. Should I call them back or go elsewhere? (This is the outfit recommended to me by the Rheem equipment distributor and is just down the road from me.) Seeing how I am really impressed by the Rheem/Ruud equipment, I'd also like to be similarly impressed by the contractor.

P.S. Thanks for responding to all of my ramblings...

[Edited by jeff-4 on 01-29-2006 at 03:51 PM]

[tbox8098]

Look strongly at the bryant evolution system. The 2 stage system. It will react very well with the different temperatures during the winter and the a/c will do the best job with dehumidification during the summer. The evolution control is able to do more as far as comfort is concerned than any other control can.

T

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by tbox8098
Look strongly at the bryant evolution system. The 2 stage system. It will react very well with the different temperatures during the winter and the a/c will do the best job with dehumidification during the summer. The evolution control is able to do more as far as comfort is concerned than any other control can.

T

You really need to pay attention better. There is "NO" furnace on the market that can control comfort in the heat mode better then the mod because there is no other furnace on the market that has the modulating heat features that the mod has. Believe me, I am glad they are expensive and that most of them are not installed properly cause I don't have anything to compete with this freak of our industry when it comes to possible comfort.

Now; if we want to talk efficiency and warranty, I can blow away the competion including the mod. But alas, we are discussing comfort and so we must concede to the Quasimoto of the HVAC world.

[Edited by RoBoTeq on 01-29-2006 at 06:56 PM]

[BaldLoonie]

Actually I think the Mod has a replacement warranty as well but not 10 year parts standard. Doesn't say it on their website but the distributor mentioned it recently.

Found it: of course it doesn't say what happens when the current units are replaced :confused: A Limited Lifetime Replacement Warranty applies to RGFD and RGGD Models ONLY to provide a replacement RGFD and RGGD Gas furnace to the original purchaser if the heat exchanger fails AND if the conditions specified in the Warranty Document are satisfied. The heat exchanger is warranted for 20 year to subsequent owners and non-residential applications.



Also seem to recall reading or hearing that York is coming out with something to compete???

[dynalowrider79]

im a ruud dealer and a carrier dealer my father has the ruud mod and i have the infinity, we both have identicla house we live across the street from each other like in everyone loves raymond, we can not tell a differece between the two furnaces in heating the only thing my father says and i agree is he wished he had the infinity controll the ruud mod doesnt have the humidity controll the infinity does and he doesnt like the the ruud stat as it does not controll like the infinity does and the ruud is not as quite as the infinity, i still like both but my first choice would always be the infinity the ruud would be my second

[jeff-4]

After speaking with the Ruud dealer again, I came away quite satisfied that he knew what he was doing. So, I have placed the order for the Ruud Modulating furnace.

Thanks for all opinions! If I remember, I'll post back after several weeks to let everyone know how I feel about the new unit.

Thanks, again...

[mayguy]

Originally posted by jeff-4
After speaking with the Ruud dealer again, I came away quite satisfied that he knew what he was doing. So, I have placed the order for the Ruud Modulating furnace.

Thanks for all opinions! If I remember, I'll post back after several weeks to let everyone know how I feel about the new unit.

Thanks, again...

Cool, Please post some pictures on the wall of pride like I did for mine. the Before and after pictures.

Getting exta stuff like media filter? Mod t-stat?

[docholiday]

Originally posted by dynalowrider79
the ruud mod doesnt have the humidity controll

The mod has humidity control, it just has to be configured properly. And the 13 SEER Ruud A/C has a better latent capacity than the Carrier does anyway. Even if he didnt install the thermostat, he still has the 3 stages and can fire down at 40%. Look both systems are top notch and the install is very important to both but all that being equal, the mod simply outperforms the other in this case.

[jeff-4]

Originally posted by mayguy
[Cool, Please post some pictures on the wall of pride like I did for mine. the Before and after pictures.

Getting exta stuff like media filter? Mod t-stat? [/B]

Wow, you are really into this stuff. Your passion is appreciated!

I knew I had the right company when I called to ask about the mod furnace and the rep said that they only install this furnace with the modulating thermostat; that it didn't make sense otherwise, because you were wasting the potential of the furnace without it.

Since I am replacing everything, I decided also to install a new Aprilaire 5000 air filter. What really appeals to me about this unit is the low level of maintenance (replacing the filter yearly and cleaning only once or twice a year). I do not enjoy cleaning my current electronic system monthly. In fact, I probably only do it evry three-four months (maybe longer), rendering it ineffective. I am also installing an Aprilaire 600 humidifier; the automatic control system also realy appeals to me.

[jeff-4]

Originally posted by docholiday

Originally posted by dynalowrider79
the ruud mod doesnt have the humidity controll

The mod has humidity control, it just has to be configured properly. And the 13 SEER Ruud A/C has a better latent capacity than the Carrier does anyway.

Dear docholiday:

I am very interested in the humidity control during the summer (i.e., dehumidifying). Bryant makes a big deal about their "Perfect Humidity" system with thermidistat control. Can the Ruud mod coupled with its 13 SEER, R-22 system also do this? (By the way, my contractor says this A/C goes to 15 SEER when coupled with the mod.) What do you mean when you say, "It just has to be configured properly."?

FYI, the system will be installed with the Ruud modulating thermostat.

Thanks!

[dynalowrider79]

the mod humidity controll is inferrior to the bryant/ifinity, you need a humidistat in addition to the ruud stat, and yes you can use a different stat and get 3 stage but you only the 2nd stage for like 5 minutes its on a timer what good is that then your not really better than the 2 stage, and i speek from experience i just didnt install one my parents live with one so i get to see it day to day and it is a very nice furnace but you still cant tell the difference my parents house isnt anymore comfortable than mine and let me stress this again we have the identical house right down to the duct and you can change all the infinity settings from the stat even with the mod stat you still have to adjust dip switches so if the customer wants to up their continuous fan speed they need to go down to the unit and adjust it and you only have the option of hi speed or low you get three with the infinity plus better diagonostics, this year we can hook up our lap tops and pdas to the infinity to see how its running cant do that with the ruud and the mod stat just seems generic when you look at it it looks like a home depot special and i know the mod sounds great and all but even thought it can mod from 40-100% it doesnt it only hangs around whats needed so during a cycle you rarely mod mor that 2-3 stages if you have an even house there is no need to mod that much if your house is 70 then you only need what its going to take to keep it there

[mayguy]

Originally posted by jeff-4

Originally posted by mayguy
[Cool, Please post some pictures on the wall of pride like I did for mine. the Before and after pictures.

Getting exta stuff like media filter? Mod t-stat?

Wow, you are really into this stuff. Your passion is appreciated!

I knew I had the right company when I called to ask about the mod furnace and the rep said that they only install this furnace with the modulating thermostat; that it didn't make sense otherwise, because you were wasting the potential of the furnace without it.

Since I am replacing everything, I decided also to install a new Aprilaire 5000 air filter. What really appeals to me about this unit is the low level of maintenance (replacing the filter yearly and cleaning only once or twice a year). I do not enjoy cleaning my current electronic system monthly. In fact, I probably only do it evry three-four months (maybe longer), rendering it ineffective. I am also installing an Aprilaire 600 humidifier; the automatic control system also realy appeals to me. [/B]

Sounds like you found a good one up there.

Yes, I am into the good stuff. :-)

I don't know right off hand if Rheem/Ruud has the timed ramp like Trane's Comfort-R. Maybe Baldlooie can chime in on this.

If it does, then it will work well for us. Our Minnesota summer can be humid, but over all, it's not like down in Fla.

[BaldLoonie]

No ramp but a simple humidistat in the return can be used for slowing the blower in high humidity. Very easy to do and cheap.

[docholiday]

If you want to cripple the mod into a 3 stage machine you can use the thermidistat. Frankly, I would rather see a two stage cooling stat dictate the sensible ratio.

Y1 calls for cooling at a reduced airflow. giving you a higher latent capacity. If Y2 ever calls, it merely brings the sensible capacity up to overcome the temperature issue. Its really pretty simple but it requires looking at books once in a while. The infinity control is handsom, I'll give it that but the equipment its hooked to has a lower latent capacity to begin with.

Either add a humidistat, or connect the two stage cooling. There is just no reason to complicate it further.

Ruud uses the term On Demand Dehumidification. Its not as pretty as a marketing slogan as tranes but it does the same thing. The mod will also bring the cooling on every once in a while just to knock moisture out of the air on days when cooling requirements are sparce.

[Edited by docholiday on 02-01-2006 at 12:56 AM]

[jdew1920]

Originally posted by docholiday
The mod will also bring the cooling on every once in a while just to knock moisture out of the air on days when cooling requirements are sparce.

That's a simple feature on the stat that is easy to enable, I used it last summer and thought it worked great. I don't feel a need for anything more elaborate than that living here in Michigan.

Jeff-4, Being an engineer I also researched furnaces like crazy last year before we got the mod. I also did my own heat loss/gain study on our home - my wife thinks I'm nut too. I just kept coming back to the mod. I almost went with something else to save a few dollars, but the way I look at it, the furnace is probably the most important appliance/equipment in your home and has the biggest impact on your comfort - why go cheap on that.

This is our first heating season with it and I've been very happy with it. I love the fact that I don't know its running yet I can go to a register and feel a nice slow warm flow of air out of them. Be sure its sized correctly so you can take full advantage of the mod function.

[Edited by jdew1920 on 02-01-2006 at 08:25 AM]

[jeff-4]

Originally posted by jdew1920

Originally posted by docholiday
The mod will also bring the cooling on every once in a while just to knock moisture out of the air on days when cooling requirements are sparce.

That's a simple feature on the stat that is easy to enable, I used it last summer and thought it worked great. I don't feel a need for anything more elaborate than that living here in Michigan.

Jeff-4, Being an engineer I also researched furnaces like crazy last year before we got the mod. I also did my own heat loss/gain study on our home - my wife thinks I'm nut too. I just kept coming back to the mod. I almost went with something else to save a few dollars, but the way I look at it, the furnace is probably the most important appliance/equipment in your home and has the biggest impact on your comfort - why go cheap on that.

This is our first heating season with it and I've been very happy with it. I love the fact that I don't know its running yet I can go to a register and feel a nice slow warm flow of air out of them. Be sure its sized correctly so you can take full advantage of the mod function.

[Edited by jdew1920 on 02-01-2006 at 08:25 AM]

Thanks for your info and comments! On sizing, I calculated a need for 60350 BTU for my home. Seeing how I am not a pro, it seems the prudent choice on the Ruud Mod was to go with the 75,000 BTU unit rather than the 60,000 BTU unit. (The furnace to be replaced is 80,000 at 90+% AFUE.) Should I ask the contractor to do a complete heat load calculation? The installation is scheduled for next Thursday.

[Advanced Response]

Not to burst your bubble or anyone else's but:

A real pro would do a complete comprehensive load calculation and check the ductwork completely if not before signing a contract but once the contract is signed to make sure the customer is getting the correct size furnace and to ensure the correct airflow to all areas of the home.. Many times a duct system is built to rule of thumb and must be corrected to operate correctly.. I have seen many homes that had way undersized ductwork systems with oversized furnaces/acs.. And even with the correct size equipment the ductwork needed to be addressed for correct operation due to it is still undersized for the correct equipment and the farther runs are way undersized..

Your contractor needs to form a complete picture of your needs and evalute the whole system not just the installation of a box.. The best furnace can be crippled by a shotty duct/supply/return system..

Good luck
J

[mayguy]

Jeff,

Do you have your new Rheem put in yet?

[jeff-4]

Originally posted by mayguy
Jeff,

Do you have your new Rheem put in yet?

Mayguy:

It's in but I am struggling a bit with the installation; see my post on "Elbows, etc., on vents; need an expert opinion!" Please chime in on the topic, if you have an opinion. (I also posted a few other questions about the installation...) Maybe my original suspicions were correct about this company!

The first two nights were a near disaster, as far as my wife was concerned (and me, too, to be honest). I used a setback temp of 55 on the modulating thermostat, which turned out to be a big mistake. My prior 'stat (an old Chronotherm III) would adjut the heat on to be early enough to meet the setpoint, irrespective of the setback temp. The new 'stat looks ahead just one hour. So, sure enough the house temp dropped to 56, the furnace fired at 5am for a 6am setpoint target, and then took about 4 hours to come back up to 68 (3 hours later than my wife was comforatble with!). In addition, there seemed to be some problem with the new 'stat not calling for full heat (another explanation for the disaster). The techs came out and checked and reset a bunch of stuff (unfortunately I was at work and not able to speak with them about what they actually did).

So, last night, I set the morning period to be earlier (using 58 setback temp with 68 to come on at 5 am), the furnace roared to life at full output sometime between 4am and 5am, and the house was perfect by 6:15am. (By the way, it was 8 degrees F outside this morning). Whew... Through the day it is seeming to happily modulate up and down as needed. The next test is this weekend, when subzero lows are expected.

Am I drained? Yes. Would I do things differently? Definitely. I do love the hardware, but I should have learned more about the installation and the installers. Am I happy? Getting there... (need to resolve the venting issues...)

Thanks for asking, and sorry for the long post.

[mayguy]

I just took a peek over to the other post.. I agree, Get the guys back to fix that.. The primer sure is a mess! But guess it's code up there to use the purple stuff.. Down here, we don't have to use the purple stuff.

I don't know the mod stat very well, I am not sure if it lean on how long it takes to heat the house up, and starts the equipement early.

I know on my Vision Pro, it starts it 1 to 2 hours early to heat the house up to temp at my set time.

Yeah, it should be nice and cold this weekend.

Keep us posted on what going on so far.

[bydabeach]

I'm a little confused on the proper thermostat for the Rheem/Ruud mod furnace. Is there only one thermostat that will work with this furnace? Will the Vision Pro work? We have spec'd our new home to have a Rheem/Ruud Mod Furnace and AC with modulating thermostat, but I didn't specify which one. Thanks in advance for your help.

[jeff-4]

Originally posted by bydabeach
I'm a little confused on the proper thermostat for the Rheem/Ruud mod furnace. Is there only one thermostat that will work with this furnace? Will the Vision Pro work? We have spec'd our new home to have a Rheem/Ruud Mod Furnace and AC with modulating thermostat, but I didn't specify which one. Thanks in advance for your help.

My understanding is that there is just the one true modulating thermostat that your dealer can install for you; all the others are one- or two-stage. But another post, "bryant evolution vs trane xv vs rheem Mod" has contractors speculating that a nifty, White-Rodgers Thermostat will be coming out soon.

In my opinon, other than the modulating output (which is a big deal, granted), the current thermostat is a bit of a dud. It is ugly. It is not so user friendly. It looks ahead just one hour, so in cold climates like mine, the furnace struggles with a large setabck to make my house come to temperature when I want it (e.g., I have had to set it for 5am to get my house to desired temp before 7am). It doesn't have features like a change-filter reminder or humidistat. Heck, it doesn't even tell you what level of heat it is calling for... I'd at least like to see the display tell me that the furnace is actually modulating. There is a rather obscure feature to manually set the furnace modulation to a certain level, but I fail to see how this is useful to an avergae homeowner.

[BaldLoonie]

I hear the W-R touchscreen will be coming soon. Seems to me Doc's suggestion if you get a Mod is just use your single stage stat til it does.

While I fully agree the current stat looks poor, most don't need or want all these extras. Even the respected Vision Pro doesn't tell you what stage it is on. I'd highly doubt that the new one does either. From what has been said it will do dehumidify on demand which will be nice.

Also seems to me that if your setback takes more than an hour, you are setting too far back. JMHO.

[htrguy]

There is a rather obscure feature to manually set the furnace modulation to a certain level, but I fail to see how this is useful to an avergae homeowner. [/B][/QUOTE]

The manual setting is for servicing the unit. Just nifty for home owners.

[jdew1920]

I don't see what's wrong with the existing thermostat that is available. I have yet to see any thermostats that were "pretty" - so I certainly wouldn't call it ugly. In fact it looks not too different from any other programmable stat I've ever seen. If you think its ugly then install it in a clostet or something and use a remote sensor.

I also don't think its difficult to use. And as far as set point anticipation feature - Is this really a major problem? Hell - turn that feature off and just set the heat to turn on 2 hours before you wake up if that makes you happy.

I'm just saying I'd focus on the furnace and not the thermostat. The modulating feature is what is important. BTW - they also sell a non-programmable version that is probably significantly cheaper if you want the modulating function now but may want to upgrade your thermostat later.

[docholiday]

lol, I've always said the same thing. I dont even look at my thermostat more than once a month, let alone play with it.

[docholiday]

Originally posted by BaldLoonie
Even the respected Vision Pro doesn't tell you what stage it is on. I'd highly doubt that the new one does either.

Lol

Could you imagine the service calls you would get if it did? I'd get a dozen calls a day from retired engineers or doctors saying "This thing is firing on 40% only 62% of the time, the pamphlet says that it will be on low fire for up to 80% of the time"

[mayguy]

Originally posted by docholiday

Originally posted by BaldLoonie
Even the respected Vision Pro doesn't tell you what stage it is on. I'd highly doubt that the new one does either.

Lol

Could you imagine the service calls you would get if it did? I'd get a dozen calls a day from retired engineers or doctors saying "This thing is firing on 40% only 62% of the time, the pamphlet says that it will be on low fire for up to 80% of the time"

There is a way that you can make it tell you if it's on 2nd stage.. I won't say how on here.

[jeff-4]

Hey guys, I certainly respect your opinions, but my analogy would be a tachometer in a car with an automatic transmission. There is no need for this information, but some of us geeks think it is really cool to know what the machinery is actually doing!

[jdew1920]

Jeff - I'm a geek too. If you look inside the little window on the furnace you should see a display. There's always something shown there. Next time the furnace is running look in there and see what code it displays. Then look in the furnace manual - there's is a code that will signify that its receiving the modulating signal for heat.

I think the ability to manually over-ride the Tstat modulating signal is pretty cool.

"Hey honey - look. The furnace is running at 55% firing rate and you don't even hear it. This is sweet!" Wife turns away and rolls her eyes.

[techgenius]

R410a (Puron) is not the refrigerant of the future and will probably be a thing of the past before it is the thing of the future. R22 systems have a proven track record and in 15 years there will be direct replacements for r22 just like there are and have been for R12. DONT GO WITH A PURON SYSTEM THEY ARE NOT DESIGNED TO LAST AND THEY ARE NOISY AS HELL.

cheers

[jeff-4]

Originally posted by techgenius
R410a (Puron) is not the refrigerant of the future and will probably be a thing of the past before it is the thing of the future. R22 systems have a proven track record and in 15 years there will be direct replacements for r22 just like there are and have been for R12. DONT GO WITH A PURON SYSTEM THEY ARE NOT DESIGNED TO LAST AND THEY ARE NOISY AS HELL.

cheers

So, I did install the R-22 system. Looking forward to testing it this summer...

[docholiday]

Originally posted by techgenius
R410a (Puron) is not the refrigerant of the future and will probably be a thing of the past before it is the thing of the future. R22 systems have a proven track record and in 15 years there will be direct replacements for r22 just like there are and have been for R12. DONT GO WITH A PURON SYSTEM THEY ARE NOT DESIGNED TO LAST AND THEY ARE NOISY AS HELL.

cheers

ok, if you say so.

[htrguy]

Originally posted by techgenius
R410a (Puron) is not the refrigerant of the future and will probably be a thing of the past before it is the thing of the future. R22 systems have a proven track record and in 15 years there will be direct replacements for r22 just like there are and have been for R12. DONT GO WITH A PURON SYSTEM THEY ARE NOT DESIGNED TO LAST AND THEY ARE NOISY AS HELL.

cheers

How would you know?
What rug did you come out from?

[dynalowrider79]

originally posted by some guy who thinks he is a genius (techgenius)


R410a (Puron) is not the refrigerant of the future and will probably be a thing of the past before it is the thing of the future. R22 systems have a proven track record and in 15 years there will be direct replacements for r22 just like there are and have been for R12. DONT GO WITH A PURON SYSTEM THEY ARE NOT DESIGNED TO LAST AND THEY ARE NOISY AS HELL.

hey dude where did you learn this info only guys who know nothing say stupid things like that. its guys like you who overcharge 410 systems and make them loud and burn out early because they dont know what they are doing, do us all a favor buddy. i have yet to have a problem with one yet and my quietest systems are 410a and they work the better than r22 its a better refrigerant. why dont you stay off here and go back to hacking in r22 systems


[Edited by dynalowrider79 on 02-17-2006 at 03:06 PM]

[mayguy]

Morning Jeff,


How did you do last night/ this moring with our very cold MN sub zero?

We had -18 here in Rochester.

[jeff-4]

Mayguy:

According to my home thermometer, we hit -15.2. It's now warming up nicely to +2. The new furnace did fine. I was doing a test of sorts. The setback was 58, with a call for 68 at 6am (knowing that I really wanted it to be 68 by 7:30am). It was 66 at 7:30 and 68 by 8:30 or so. I think it will work perfectly with a setback of 60 and a call for heat 1.5 hrs before I really want it. Sorry if this is confusing; I really liked my old Honeywell thermostat with adaptive intelligent recovery, where I just set it with a huge setback (to 55) and forgot about it. As you probably know, it would adaptaively set the time to call for heat to meet the target (starting very early in the morning on these subzero days). Too bad Honeywell doesn't make a truly modulating thermstat for home use with this feature. The good news is that the furnace did take the house from 58 to 68 in a reasonable amount of time in -15 degree weather. So, 75,000 BTU is sufficient. Now, if I can just get the venting redone (see other post), I think I'll be a happy camper.

[mayguy]

I may of missed a reply from one of the Rheem guys, but I am not sure if this t-stat learns like the honywell does or not?

Look a fwe days ago, it was only 0, and this morning it was -20.. The t-stat hasn't had a chance to learn the "cold temp".. give it a few days to learn the home and weather.

[docholiday]

I honestly dont think there is the same logic that honeywell uses. Honeywell holds the patent to that just like ranco holds the one to demand defrost.

Someone mentioned an hour, that could be right. Although if you are setting back that far, even the honeywell cannot anticipate a day when its 0 degrees out and the set back is nearly 15 degrees. Remember 0 degrees is close to full load and if the furnace is sized correctly, it would not be able to raise the temp in the house 15 degrees in an hour or two and then you pretty much defeat the purpose for setting it back.

[BaldLoonie]

Exactly. Setting back at -20 is like a heat pump trying to recover when at its balance point. If you have capacity to recover from a setback at -20, you is OVERSIZED!!!

[mayguy]

When I know it's going to be -10 or colder, I lock my t-stat in and leave the temp alone.

[techgenius]

Originally posted by dynalowrider79
originally posted by some guy who thinks he is a genius (techgenius)


R410a (Puron) is not the refrigerant of the future and will probably be a thing of the past before it is the thing of the future. R22 systems have a proven track record and in 15 years there will be direct replacements for r22 just like there are and have been for R12. DONT GO WITH A PURON SYSTEM THEY ARE NOT DESIGNED TO LAST AND THEY ARE NOISY AS HELL.

hey dude where did you learn this info only guys who know nothing say stupid things like that. its guys like you who overcharge 410 systems and make them loud and burn out early because they dont know what they are doing, do us all a favor buddy. i have yet to have a problem with one yet and my quietest systems are 410a and they work the better than r22 its a better refrigerant. why dont you stay off here and go back to hacking in r22 systems


[Edited by dynalowrider79 on 02-17-2006 at 03:06 PM]


Ok, if you know sooooooooo much about 410a and you love it so much. What is the most crucial thing that you must maintain in a 410a system in order to have your ultimate efficiency?. And if you want to be an idiot by putting people down for expressing their opinion then you should'nt be a part of this discussion.

[docholiday]

we give up, whats the answer?


I sure hope it doesnt apply to R-22.