$750 gas bill for January

[george66]

Geepers! 100 year old 2 story home 4800sf 13ft ceilings.
Florida Panhandle/Mobile area. Had to fire up the 1909 hot water boiler for temps below freezing. Usually use the old downstairs 5 ton NG package unit (needs replacement) with ducts running in basement. Water heater about to die too! Upstairs is new Carrier 15 SEER A/C with heat strips (really doesn't heat much). Sooo...what to do?
1. Replace boiler with new, but what kind given it won't get much use? No point wasting money. Do boilers rust out if rarely used? Do I need stainless steel? Just keep the old boiler? I smell incomplete combustion fumes in the basement boiler room, and also outside by the package unit.
2. Replace gas package unit. Electric Co. says HEAT PUMP!!
Makes some sense to me, especially the 2 speed with 2 speed air handler.
3. Domestic water heater needs replacement-can this dovetail with the new boiler/HVAC?
WHAT'S BEST for the long term?
WHAT'S CHEAPEST?
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[wally01]

Come on you Fla guys give him some help/direction.

[walterc]

Sorry- I don't live in your area and couldn't reply with much help with any- but down here in the south, most contractors undersize heat stripps on heat pumps because of our warmer weather. I have learned to install larger stripps and place a timer in the stripps to bring in 5kw more if the call for stripps is longer than 8 minutes or the outdoor temp falls below 28 degrees. The stripps and controls on the elect heat should be checked. I have an old home too and I decided my money would go to making the home more efficient first, then go with a properly sized system to match the updates.
Not much help - but just FYI.

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by george66

100 year old
2 story home
4800sf
13ft ceilings.
Florida Panhandle/Mobile area

Upstairs is new Carrier 15 SEER A/C with heat strips (really doesn't heat much). Sooo...what to do?

Electric Co. says HEAT PUMP!!
Makes some sense to me, especially the 2 speed with 2 speed air handler.

WHAT'S BEST for the long term?
WHAT'S CHEAPEST?

What's cheapest?
Ones that don't work well and satisfy rela Home Comfort needs
Try
TRANE XL16i heat pump

Sizes: ... ~ Two 5-tons

http://www.trane.com/residential/products/HeatPumps/xl16i.aspx

[Toolpusher]

How can anyone in Fla have a bill that large ?

People here in central Ohio, with the mild winter we have had. I'm hearing reports of $200 to $300

Unless they know that you won't use as much, so they make you pay 3 times per therm what we pay up here.

Misreadings or bad meterbase somethings wrong.

[victoff75]

MOVE

[morris-jenkins]

yes you can use a heating boiler to heat your domestic hot water.........its great if done right...i renovated 2 century old homes one in nc and one in clv,oh if you can hold out tighten up the house first then redo the hvac/pplumbing later so you can properly size the equipment. as for cheap ypu can always get it done cheap and some one will always do it cheaper but remember you get what you pay for id more inclined to get it done right so you only pay for it once....boilers arent cheap but you can get to be very efficient 90%+ efficiency.....if you cant afford to have a reputable company do the work than consider selling the house and cut your loses

[inturmoil]

You guys *****ing about your gas bills should do the following:
Write to your congressmen. Demand more refineries. Demand more drilling for oil. If we can't drill for oil in a frozen wasteland (ANWR) then where can we?
Vote for conservatives.
Also lose your bias towards nuclear energy, its the cleanest.
The answer is so easy its stupid.

[MikeJ]

Something fishy? I haven't got my Jan '06 bill yet cause I ain't done using gas for Jan.
But my old house, with an old large boiler, with old windows that I didn't seal up this year, gas water heater and gas clothes dryer used by a teenager and 3 adults, cost me $245 for gas and about $80 for electric. Electric is high cause everyone has a tv and cable boxes, games, computers and no one cuts the power, just turns them off.
And I hung Xmas lites for the neighbors to look at. With music.

Best you try watching some dials and get meter checked.

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by Toolpusher
How can anyone in Fla have a bill that large ?

ALL the doors and some of the windows must have been left open?!

My SW FL January heating bill will be ~$10.50 maximum
(100 kW/ month straight electric, 20 hours x 5 kW).
My January '06 A/C cost will be slightly more than that.
...................

OP has problem with efficiency that
might be ~ 30% in 97-year old unit.

Also, infiltration could be half the heat loss.

[beenthere]

Improve the house envelope first, then replace your hvac systems with the right sized new equipment.

Is your 1909 boiler still a gravity system, they give great comfort, but use alot of fuel to do it.

[acam]

inturmoil wrote:

You guys *****ing about your gas bills should do the following:
Write to your congressmen. Demand more refineries. Demand more drilling for oil. If we can't drill for oil in a frozen wasteland (ANWR) then where can we?
Vote for conservatives.
Also lose your bias towards nuclear energy, its the cleanest.
The answer is so easy its stupid.


Gees, I thought we have had "conservatives" for the past 12 years in Congress and 5 years in the White House. Yea, something here is stupid alright. Of course, "inturmoil" is another term for confused.

[James 3528]

Originally posted by Toolpusher
How can anyone in Fla have a bill that large ?

People here in central Ohio, with the mild winter we have had. I'm hearing reports of $200 to $300

Unless they know that you won't use as much, so they make you pay 3 times per therm what we pay up here.

Misreadings or bad meterbase somethings wrong.

That is what I am thinking. That is obvious.

[deejoe]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Toolpusher
[B]How can anyone in Fla have a bill that large ?

People here in central Ohio, with the mild winter we have had. I'm hearing reports of $200 to $300
---------------------------------------------

I bet not too many have 13' ceilings either. The poster should install 8'ceilings and rent out the 5 ' areas for storage space.(lol)..With the storage rent money together with the big heat savings he will be much better off.$$$

As to your foot-note question;"if you try to fail and succeed, what have you done"?

Answer; "you have succeeded in trying to fail"

[Edited by deejoe on 01-29-2006 at 09:11 AM]

[t527ed]

better find that uncapped gas line!

[inturmoil]

"Gees, I thought we have had "conservatives" for the past 12 years in Congress and 5 years in the White House. Yea, something here is stupid alright. Of course, "inturmoil" is another term for confused"
Who has been fillibustering the conservatives' energy plan?
Answer this honestly, tree huggin' hippie!

[James 3528]

? shakes head

[atufano]

Originally posted by inturmoil
"Gees, I thought we have had "conservatives" for the past 12 years in Congress and 5 years in the White House. Yea, something here is stupid alright. Of course, "inturmoil" is another term for confused"
Who has been fillibustering the conservatives' energy plan?
Answer this honestly, tree huggin' hippie!

I agree with inturmoil. Nuclear energy is the cleanest and safest. As long as there are no oopsies. Considering, if I could get an RTG, I'd take it.

Drill for oil wherever it is found.

Who cares? I don't. If I have to choose between feeding my family and allowing reindeer frolic, shoot the deer for meat and drill where the blood soaked the ground. :)

I understand responsible use of resources and land, but don't put the welfare of wildlife above humans.

[James 3528]

The guy has a obvious gas leak and yall are gonna build a nuke plant?

Talk about a act of congress.

[atufano]

Originally posted by James 3528
The guy has a obvious gas leak and yall are gonna build a nuke plant?

Talk about a act of congress.

Yeah! Build the plant and he can get rid of the gas. It's a symbiotic relationship. My vote is to litter the landscape with RTG's. :)

[acam]

Your confused again. I'm all for building a nuke plant in your front yard and a depository for the spent fuel rods in your back yard. Hell, let's do two and have the same setup at atufano's house. And I promise I won't hug a tree in either of you guys' yards. Now go "glow" yourselves.

[atufano]

Originally posted by acam
Your confused again. I'm all for building a nuke plant in your front yard and a depository for the spent fuel rods in your back yard. Hell, let's do two and have the same setup at atufano's house. And I promise I won't hug a tree in either of you guys' yards. Now go "glow" yourselves.

I already have on in my backyard. Indian Point Nuclear Power Station. I lived on a Nuclear Air Craft Carrier and worked on Radar. I'm fine.
Nuclear power is safer than what we are doing now. I like breathing in pollutants and acid rain really has helped the lakes up here in New York. The paint that my car has(d) has faded nicely. Thanks! Also, our dependance on foreign oil really helps our economy. So it's not the food for oil, it's food OR oil...

[george66]

Thanks to all, including the humor. The furnace supply measures over 4" and when lit appears to burn about a cubic foot of gas per second or two. Also gas hot water and cooktop. Gas bills are $75 in summer. No leaks found by Gas Co. Sooo...need a new boiler approx 170,000 BTU for standby use for freezing temps...any recommendations?
Next decision is between Am Standard/Trane Heritage16/xl 16i
split system versus package heat pump. Any recommendations appreciated.Thanks

[beenthere]

Weil McLain Ultra 230 condensing boiler.

[peytonc2682]

Well since you are in FL, why not go heat pump and forget about the gas? Florida is one of the best places in the world to have a heat pump.

[uktra]

Inturmoil---If you think conservative congressmen, drilling in ANWAR, or any of your other half-assed ideas are going to cure the natural gas problem, you are out to lunch, and don't have a clue. You need to study the problem before you mouth off.

[mayguy]

Originally posted by george66
Thanks to all, including the humor. The furnace supply measures over 4" and when lit appears to burn about a cubic foot of gas per second or two. Also gas hot water and cooktop. Gas bills are $75 in summer. No leaks found by Gas Co. Sooo...need a new boiler approx 170,000 BTU for standby use for freezing temps...any recommendations?
Next decision is between Am Standard/Trane Heritage16/xl 16i
split system versus package heat pump. Any recommendations appreciated.Thanks

Wow! that much in the summer? They must charge ALOT for your gas?? My summer gas bill is about $20, and winter last month was $120 for Minnesota winter.

have you compair your gas bill with your neighbors?

American Standard and Trane are both the same thing. Just Trane has that top.

[george66]

Yeah, the city owns the gas company, so it's a big revenue producer. The neighborhood average is about 350 to $400 for last month. Best I've heard of is $100 for a super=insulated 2100 sf home. Since hurricanes Ivan, Dennis, and Katrina, you can no longer talk to a real tradesman-they send out the salesman who can't answer questiones straight up. I've lost $10k to contractors who take deposits for materials, then never show up again-and that has become the norm. The real casualty is the loss of the way of life I grew up in-great respect for men who were skilled and honest in their trades and pillars of the community. Knowlege from a website like this is one way to protect yourself from the salesmen. Having a 100 y.o. relic can be a bear as well, but it's been my home for a couple of decades. Trying also to figure out the best insulation (spray foam non vent attic, basement walls/floors, storms. And that might change the HVAC sizing. Thanks to all for trying.

[cem-bsee]

the proposed pipeline across Canada will do a whole lot to help with our natural gas supply!!

our City utilities just breaks even!

read lots at BUILDINGSCIENCE.com

have LOTS of insulation in the attic = big heat loss

caulk around ALL trim to cut down infiltration --

if you have good elec wiring & phone & TV in the outside walls, you can probably pour cellulose insulation down the wall stud spaces from the attic --

[Edited by cem-bsee on 01-30-2006 at 09:49 PM]

[Steve Wiggins]

Originally posted by inturmoil
You guys *****ing about your gas bills should do the following:
Write to your congressmen. Demand more refineries. Demand more drilling for oil. If we can't drill for oil in a frozen wasteland (ANWR) then where can we?
Vote for conservatives.
Also lose your bias towards nuclear energy, its the cleanest.
The answer is so easy its stupid.

But what about little bunnies that want to frolic in the forest?

[uktra]

Cem-bsee--I wish one pipeline across Canada would make a big difference in supply--but it won't. LNG supplies will be the only way to increase supplies to any real extent. The problem with that is infastructure--we only have 4 LNG ports in US.

[atufano]

Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
But what about little bunnies that want to frolic in the forest? [/B]

Mmmmmmmmmm Bunnies..... =-Homer J. Simpson

[billygoat22]

You can make the supply lines bigger- or the gas demand smaller.

Problem is- bigger the gov pays for, smaller the HO pays for. So you know what most people think is the solution. Everyone else's taxes should subsidize your energy hog house.

Nuclear would be dandy, but I don't consider a 20,000 year half life "clean" for the waste. You can scrub the CO2 from the air in a hundred years or so, 5 minutes in comparison to nuclear waste.

[atufano]

Originally posted by billygoat22
You can make the supply lines bigger- or the gas demand smaller.

Problem is- bigger the gov pays for, smaller the HO pays for. So you know what most people think is the solution. Everyone else's taxes should subsidize your energy hog house.

Nuclear would be dandy, but I don't consider a 20,000 year half life "clean" for the waste. You can scrub the CO2 from the air in a hundred years or so, 5 minutes in comparison to nuclear waste.

Sure you can clean up the air, but what do you do with the dirty rags? Put them in a barrel and bury it? Same problem, just one seems more managable then the other. Plus it's not the CO2, it's those nasty little dioxins and other goodies that our cars and other fossil fuel systems belch out at such an alarming rate.

I'm sure we could find innovative ways of removing the waste or treating it. Launch it into space and send it on a trajectory to the nearest black hole. Or a cave in Afghanistan. :)

With everything that is going to kill you, I like the relatively quick and painful death from radiation poisioning then the slow painful cancerous death caused by the 'cleaner' waste. No matter how you put a face or compare them. It's a choice of 3 evils. I just like to more evil ones.. :)

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by george66


The neighborhood average is about 350 to $400 for last month.

I've lost $10k to contractors who take deposits for materials, then never show up again-and that has become the norm. The real casualty is the loss of the way of life I grew up in-great respect for men who were skilled and honest in their trades and pillars of the community.

Having a 100 y.o. relic can be a bear as well, but it's been my home for a couple of decades.

Trying also to figure out the best insulation (spray foam non vent attic, basement walls/floors, storms. And that might change the HVAC sizing. Thanks to all for trying.



Where are you ? ... Maybe I need to visit?

Estero FL to Mobile AL is Rather Lengthy!
... 656.6 miles
Approximate Travel Time: 10 hours 6 mins
I guess you can e-mail or send me some pictures.

I can easily determine a balanced plan in several hours.

TRANE XL16i heat pump
Sizes: ... ~ Two 5-tons

http://www.trane.com/residential/products/HeatPumps/xl16i.aspx

[Edited by dan sw fl on 01-30-2006 at 11:30 PM]